Episode 670: Trends & Influences - Bikini Warriors
Added 2025-02-07 12:00:13 +0000 UTCJeremy: This is one of those tricky topics where there's a conversion worth having, but it needs to be navigated carefully to avoid a misstep. In this case, the topic is the trend of very lightly armored lady warriors who became almost completely ubiquitous in games from Japan sometime around 1986.
On one side, this discussion runs the risk of becoming a collective leer; on the other, there's a precarious plunge into prim prudishness. I think we managed to maintain our footing here, though! To keep us on the straight and narrow, I roped in not only Nadia but also an expert in the topic of ladies in gaming: Kate "Critical Kate" Willaert. (And Kurt Kalata, too.) Kate didn't just bring some perspective to this episode, she also expanded my show notes from a couple of pages to about 90. Since we refer to those notes a lot and they involve a ton of images, I've uploaded them here as an attachment. If you'd like to follow along with our discussion, you can download the notes for a visual reference to the conversational topics.
This episode is another of the "Trends & Influences" series I've been brewing for the past year. We have a few more of these coming up soon, but don't worry—this won't be the entirety of my 2025 episode lineup. Oh no. I have lots of other interesting series and gimmicks in the works, don't you worry.
9:10 - Onechanbara: Bikini Samurai Squad "BGM 01"
24:20 - Athena "World of Forest"
34:40 - Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze "Savannah Symphony"
44:55 - Mass Effect 3 "Citadel Attacked"
54:05 - Shogun "Crimson Sky"
1:06:25 - C64 Remix "Flash Gordon"
1:15:10 - Star Wars "Princess Leia" / Urusei Yatsura: Endless Summer "RAM"
1:29:35 - Red Sonja "Main Theme"
1:47:05 - Cobra The Arcade "Crystal Bowie"
2:09:25 - Other M "Theme of Super Metroid"
2:21:00 - Code of Princess "The Holy Princess"
End - Metroid "Mission Completed Successfully"
Comments
*tugs at collar* Hey, whoa, speak for yourself there, buddy!
waterproofjesus
2025-02-24 22:29:55 +0000 UTCYou didn’t offend me. I was just trying to point out how you’re assuming a lot of opinion as fact. FWIW, I’ve seen a lot of naked guys. There are not a lot of straight lines there.
Drew Mackie
2025-02-12 17:08:00 +0000 UTCFor my first point, a good example is Seinfeld s9e9. Also, it's fact humans see straight lines as more aggressive and threatening than curves. Various species, even males, attract mates by their appearance and is a major factor in natural selection. I'm not offended, and I think their criticisms were sadly accurate. I guess I'm just more interested in other perspectives because the real answer isn't soley "men are perverts". I apologize if I offended you. It's often impossible to expand the narrative beyond blaming men in the current zeitgeist without being labeled misogynistic.
Andrew O.
2025-02-12 02:18:55 +0000 UTCSo wait. You're like "women are better to look at than men" and then you go on to act like this is a fact and not your opinion, and *then* you act offended at the idea that this panel was critical of the way many men objectify women and female characters??
Drew Mackie
2025-02-12 01:18:13 +0000 UTCThe female form is generally more appealing and associated with beauty and nature, while they male form is associated with comedy or disgust. Psychologically humans prefer curves as they are aesthetically pleasing and impart feelings of calmness and comfort. Women tend to put more effort into their appearance, so it makes more evolutionary sense too. Not to mention the simplicity in drawing front-facing female genitalia compared to male. In motion women are much more interesting to look at. Even simple actions, like the sway of their hips when walking, make them feel more lifelike when animated. While valid historical points were made in the episode, it felt like the conversation frequently circled back to "men are pigs", when the reality behind it all is far more complex and interesting than that tired diatribe.
Andrew O.
2025-02-11 00:41:10 +0000 UTCJust the title alone reminds me of the very first episode of Retronauts that I ever listened to, Retronauts episode 97: BRO-totypes.
littleterr0r
2025-02-09 19:44:42 +0000 UTCA really great episode with a mix of fun and academia. Sir Terry Pratchett got a mention but I was surprised it wasn't this passage of his. A little long but it wonderfully outlines his witty take on fantasy, as well as this episodes subject "Now, there is a tendency at a point like this to look over one’s shoulder at the cover artist and start going on at length about leather, tightboots and naked blades. Words like ‘full’, ‘round’ and even ‘pert’ creep into the narrative, until the writer has to go and have a cold shower and a lie down. Which is all rather silly, because any woman setting out to make a living by the sword isn’t about to go around looking like something off the cover of the more advanced kind of lingerie catalogue for the specialized buyer. Oh well, all right. The point that must be made is that although Herrena the Henna-Haired Harridan would look quite stunning after a good bath, a heavy-duty manicure, and the pick of the leather racks in Woo Hun Ling’s Oriental Exotica and Martial Aids on Heroes Street, she was currently quite sensibly dressed in light chain mail, soft boots, and a short sword. All right, maybe the boots were leather. But not black."
Wood Duck
2025-02-09 02:36:52 +0000 UTCI could easily have listened to another two hours of this. The four of you have great chemistry as a quartet, and the exact mix of scholarliness and snark that this topic deserves. Gonna have to check out Kate's channel.
Quin Adams
2025-02-08 05:56:09 +0000 UTCWould also like to point out that in the gay community, at least in the US, body hair is very much back in fashion. Gays largely stopped shaving their chests in the last 15 years or so
Drew Mackie
2025-02-08 00:33:39 +0000 UTCKate’s Retronauts debut is long overdue but this really was the perfect episode to have her on. Huge fan of hers.
Drew Mackie
2025-02-08 00:14:14 +0000 UTCEnjoyed the episode. Appreciated the shoutouts to deeper anime cuts though I wouldn't categorize Tezuka's Cleopatra under this category (side note I highly recommend that movie. It's a bad movie but so batshit insane it needs to be seen to be believed). As for the subject matter, as a gay man, I don't mind the women in the skimpy outfits as long as the men are there in just as little clothing :).
Patrick McClafferty
2025-02-07 16:22:52 +0000 UTCOh I thought this would be about the Bikini Warriors anime
SilverHairedMiddleAgedTuxedoMask
2025-02-07 15:19:40 +0000 UTCLove that you are covering this topic! And very much enjoying the guests’ insights into this discussion, it’s very relatable❤️ I hadn’t seen the Japanese Athena cover art before and looking at the front and back of it (front is her at the start of her quest and bare bones, the back she’s complete in gold armor) makes me think it has a sort of dress-up doll quality to it, like a choose your own adventure for Athena. And the western Athena cover is insanely beautiful, wow. Two different ways to visually interpret “you are about to go on a grand adventure”.
Jackie G
2025-02-07 14:54:05 +0000 UTCI'm very intrigued to discover how a topic like this gets to a Shogun music cue, especially one for "Crimson Sky".
Guillermo Jiménez
2025-02-07 14:51:38 +0000 UTC
