PATREON EXCLUSIVE: Discussing The Morality Of Older Men Dating Very Young Women

I am guessing you are white and have not been around older East Asians much or you would further expand your age range. I had a serious relationship with a smoking hot (e.g. 6 pack) 48-year-old (who at the time regularly dated 20-something guys) and she still looks quite attractive at 60.

Jeff Winchell

I was married for 19 years, and I was happy until she cheated. (I have three children). Since the divorce, I’ve been increasingly interested in younger women. Women my own age are either bitter, or so emotionally unavailable and suspicious that men only want them for sex, that they are cold, closed and unappealing. Many younger women (early 20s) are mature enough to be able to consider a relationship but don’t have the hang-ups and baggage that older women have... I’m not ruling out older women completely. It’s nice to have shared experiences too. But I’m an introvert and happy with my own company most of the time. I don’t need companionship as much as I want chemistry and a happy sex life. I’m reevaluating a lot of beliefs and rediscovering who I am, and learning to date again. Not sure yet where my journey will end, which is why I’ve ended-up here...

Andy MacLeod

Just came across the data point that 10+ year age gaps have higher reported happiness levels in a relationship than smaller gaps.

William Mullen

Sounds positive, happy for you brother :) Just tread carefully and enjoy the journey. Sounds like the exact example I alluded to in my video where an age difference just happens to be there, which is fine :)

Alexander Grace

Hi Alexander, I’m divorced (8yrs ago) and 2 teen kids. I’m 39 and I’ve NEVER dated a girl more than 5yrs younger than me. I started going to a new synagogue and really clicked with this 20yr old that had just moved here with her family from Montana. She’s pretty mature for her age (I guessed she was maybe 24-25 when I met her) and her family is pretty tight for having to live in the heavy seasons off the grid in Montana. For months we just met at religious events and always clicked and teased each other. At one event she invited me to her family’s home for dinner with another family for Hanukah. Had tons of fun and both her mom and dad became significantly more friendly toward me at subsequent functions. The family and I have since done an outing at the lake together (more flirting), a dinner and movie at their house where me and this girl (more flirting with her and good times with the family) and when I offered to cook them dinner I was asked to come to their house for Father’s Day (I have the kids for the other half of Father’s Day weekend so there’s no conflict). But I’m still apprehensive because it’s not totally clear what’s going between us or what all is happening here and then there’s the potential social stigma in our mutual social circle. Like you said, I don’t feel I should be ashamed. I want to see where this goes but don’t want to be caught in a bad situation. Thoughts?

Nathan Mountford

You make some good points, and here's my take on the situation as a 24 year old. In your video you bring up the situation that an 18 year old being new to the scene could be a dear in the headlights when it comes down to this situation. Fair. She could be. Is she responsible for her own reaction or is the guy? If she's not responsible for her own reaction, is it due to her age? If so, what age can we ask people to be responsible for their own well being? I'm not denying that there are not predators out there, and the world is a bit messed up showing us 14 year old girl models plastered on Vicky's Secret windows. But It's not sitting with me right that we just treat a legally adult woman as a damsel in distress when it's a normal dating encounter. The bar is where people go to meet/flirt/dance. If you just go to drink, then you're financially irresponsible because grocery stores are just as good. So being an adult, I'd expect these women to know this, and if they can't take responsibility of saying 'No' to some basic advances like an arm touch in a loud bar, then they really shouldn't put themselves in that situation. I know my view is a bit "victim blaming-ish". But if you don't know how to say 'No' after 18 years of life, you'll have my pity, but I'll find it hard to give my sympathy.

Konrad Wright

I think grooming is more situational. It seems to have taken on a negative connotation. If someone instills good values into the person they've "groomed", that would not be an issue. It's when it's gone with nefarious intentions that the word really takes in the qualities as it's been seen to hold.

Miguel Angel Chavez

I am 55. I have always liked women about my own age. That has changed in the last five years. Why? Women have about 30 years of peak attractiveness from about 20 until about 50. The boundrys of this are puberty on the young side and menopause on older side. You can spread it out a bit.. some 15 year olds can be attractive and some 55 year olds.. but no 10 year olds or no 60 year olds. Even when your 20 or 30 you can loook up 15 or 20 years at "milfs" and they can be pretty hot. But not at this age for me.. 70? 75? eeek.. So I have to go down into the 40s to get a partner of like mind and sexually attractive. I hope this does not sound too harsh.

Shawn D

Your error is in presuming women mentally mature over time. As a 49yo, I find very little difference between the mentality of a 19yo vs. a 39yo, except that the latter are more jaded and bitter (as Alex anecdotally supports when he notes that he can only gain interviews with about 5% of women age 30+). Some Red Pill commentators claim that women stop maturing when they realize that men find them attractive, and then don't start maturing until they hit the wall. In my experience, even this is optimistic. I've found almost universally that women are always much more concerned about apportioning blame than problem solving, by which I mean they want everyone to know that THEY are NOT to blame. When nothing is your fault, it's not your obligation to change, but rather other people's obligation. Such a mentality does not result in accumulation of wisdom or maturity over time. Obviously I'm generalizing so I presume that there are outliers, though I've not really met any. As you may be able to tell from Alex's interviews, they are simply incapable of learning many truths which contradict their biological programming and they live in a state of constant cognitive dissonance. Your expectation that they will mature out of this is gravely mistaken. Also, as I pointed out in a previous post, older women aren't interesting in dating me as I am weak on the resources metric and have significant baggage (3 kids). I date younger women not only because I want to, but because I have to, as they prioritize my strengths (aesthetics and demeanor).

William Mullen

Good point. Begs the question of what good parenting really looks like.

Oliver Brossmann

As a 21 year old, I must say that even in my relatively small amount of experience, women typically prefer older men. I have no problem getting dates or having women be interested in a relationship with me. Even so, the majority of women (about 75%) I go out with are usually in the 18-20 range, with the rest being my age and only one so far being a measly year older than me. Obviously since I’m so young these age differences aren’t ridiculous, but I think the trend is still there. On another note, I can’t shit on older guys that can manage to pull women my age, but I do think that it’s a bit questionable to say the least. I, for example, wouldn’t feel comfortable at all dating a 17 year old girl even though it’s legal in my state. That’s only four years, but the gap between myself in the average 17 yo mentally is tremendous. Perhaps this is due to the transition from high school to college, as well as my experience in the working world, but the point still stands. I can safely guarantee that I’ll find 18 year old women attractive when I’m 35, but I’m not sure if I could stomach them in a committed relationship by then. We’d be living in completely different worlds. Older men, please feel free to school me.

Ethan P.

On one hand, I totally agree with what you’re saying. Ideally a young woman should be equipped to deal with that situation. But also, if she was raised properly, she likely has not encountered that set of circumstances too often up to that point. Many times we need experience dealing with stressful situations before we have the tools to defend ourselves in the future.

Ethan P.

My first Patreon vid! And I was looking forward to it, as I'm 49 and exclusively date under 25 (last girl was 19). Honestly, however, a bit disappointing, lol (still a massive fan, no shade, bro). Some thoughts: 1. I agree with you about manipulation but I don't think this is particularly specific to age gap relationships, in that manipulation is always bad, and the world is so full of dumb people that in my view are not particularly different from inexperienced people (as George Carlin once said, think of how dumb the average person is, and then remember that half of them are dumber than that!). As someone very concerned and knowledgable about ethics (even writing a book in that regard), I'm allergic to manipulation, but I don't really find young women to be a particularly vulnerable target. In fact, they are much more likely to be predatory in that manipulative sense, as they are flush with power, have had several years to get used to it, and are likely deploying it constantly. The average man is helpless in the face of their aesthetic power, and they know it and leverage it. Seeking Arrangements, for example, is much more about young women exploiting older Betas. 2. You missed a logistical nuance, which is that the 25 and under set is the ONLY female demographic interested in dating me. I have tried dating women 30+, and they universally find me unattractive, in that I am poor and have significant baggage (3 kids). One women very entertaining explained this to me in fury, as she thought I'd "deceived" her by not telling her I had 3 kids (she somehow thought I had only 1). They are not interested in a man for who he is, but rather for the role they envision as provider for HER potential family. Whereas the younger set is very interested in me because I have very strong aesthetics, and don't particularly care about my income or baggage. 3. Any societal moral condemnation tends to be from older women! And I think the source of that is basically fury that the men they want aren't choosing them. And I think your view is more influenced by this than any actual unethical behavior, on the grounds I claimed in point 1. 4. I agree that an older man has to be much more reserved in his approaches, because rejection these days can lead to powerful social stigma. But frankly, younger girls are much less coy with their IOI's than are older women, so anyone who is reasonably observant can identify their interest (I'm terrible at social observation and even I can tell when a young girl wants me). I think it's quite possible for an older man to navigate relationship possibilities with younger women in an ethical manner (with much less social risk involved). 5. While younger women are uneducated and unaccomplished, so are older women. They're almost all basic bitches, with dumb views riddled with cognitive dissonance. I see very little improvement in that regard as women age, but I do see a lot more entitlement and bitterness. Younger women are infinitely more refreshing and fun to be with. I see very little value add in pursuing older girls. (you had an excellent video about why men are interested in younger girls for reasons other than beauty, which I thought was one of your best)

William Mullen

The point you make about what you would want for your 18 year old daughter had me thinking: Wouldn't you want to raise a women that could in fact handle that exact sort of situation? An 18 year old women with the proper upbringing should have no problem refusing a man's unwanted flirtations.

Oliver Brossmann

Met a girl when she was 17 and I was 29 because we were in the same Church group. Became friends but our friendship was limited (by me) to our social interactions inside our group. She had developed feelings for me and I started developing feelings for her about a year after I met her. We didnt start dating until she was 19. The relationship had a strong friendship foundation and her parents and friends knew me (although despite this I saw her father was somewhat uncomfortable at the beginning and with good reason). We had a beautiful 3-year relationship until my job forced me to move away. We decided to try long-distance rather than me quitting cuz our bond was strong and she was in college and that job was gonna make me lots of money which I believed would come in handy in our future. The bond broke eventually, but to this day we still talk and I believe that one day in the future we may end up together again. The best relationship I've been so far.

Stefan Royleo

I have a hard time with age gap relationships, although that doesn’t mean I think they are necessarily morally wrong. The exception for me is much younger girls (early to mid teens) due to their emotional/psychological immaturity - that, I see as a moral issue. For girls that are older teens or early twenties it is not so much a moral issue per se. That said, there is usually some serious damage there if they are opting to date significantly older guys. Although to be fair, a lot of people are damaged at all ages. Still, if it happens, it shouldn’t be a surprise if they behave poorly and don’t really care about the man for who he is because whatever issues are driving her (most likely severe daddy or security issues) - they will affect other areas of her life as well. But, if both individuals are on the same page - it’s not really an issue of questionable ethics - just possibly questionable choices. And, in the rare instance where a younger girl is somewhat mature and has a good emotional connection with the guy and they get married - well, then as with any marriage, I wish for them as many good years as they can get- but every age gap marriage I’ve seen (which admittedly is only like 5) has ended very sad for the woman. Being in your 40/50s and having to try and manage senior care for your parents and husband while also possibly working and keeping tabs on your children and grand children is brutal.

I couldn't agree with more with the opinions expressed in this video. I've never been sympathetic towards older men who chase after young girls. I realize that life is complicated and it's possible to think of all sorts of exceptions, but I have no respect for guys who chase after girls who are clearly too young.

Ken Schafer

Older men have resources to offer that some younger women would like to have. Perhaps feeding into the dynamic from her point of view are fatherhood fondness or abandonment issues; he offers financial stability, emotional maturity, a certain kind of life knowledge and wisdom. The relationship between them sets the framework where physical intimacy is traded for the intangibles. He has to get something out of the relationship for all he brings to the table and she has to get something equally valuable from the relationship as well. As long as both are on the same side of the age of consent, and it's something she wants and it's something he wants, then it's none of my business. I enjoy your videos.

Tony Grijalva

I have to disagree. I was in highschool. Chicks are having sex and in relationships at 15 and 16, alot of the times with people older than them. I say 2 or 3 years after puts them at 17 or 18. I'm currently 25 and I basically have the reverse where I sorta like cougars(older women around 35) so I know how it is to date older when you are only 18. This content makes it seem like all girls are just deer in the headlights and getting taken advantage by these mean men. But there is a reason young guys always complain about getting girls. Because most girls date up(usually older) and there is a reason this has happened for almost all of human existence. I date older now but I know when I get in my 30s or 40s I'm not gonna let some moral standing get in the way of an attractive younger woman.

Jay Johnson

highly agree with you on this but why aren t you call out the one above for their BETA behavior ? Or it is because you want to avoid conflict with the dude above ? I did not notice the top guy comment but after reading your i take a look carefully at his comment and was tempt to call out his pathetic behavior

Phuc Viet

Alex, I usually love your content but you are off base with this. Saying Uber handsome James Tusk, 32, shouldn't be looking at a 19 year old is a nonsense my friend. These are waaayyyy too broad brushstrokes your painting. If half your candour is highlighting the exceptions, they're not exceptions. It's ALL circumstance & down to the individual. Yes, yes of course there will always be outliers, in-shape 70 year old billionaires schtupping 22 year old girls on their yacht, but isn't ALL sex contractual at some level? Saying in one breath "If you're an 'older' guy, say in your 30's or 40's" just betrays your own age my friend. Saying a guy in his 30's shouldn't be dating a 19 or 20 year old is just a nonsense Its happening EVERYWHERE ... and no, not just in Hollywood, where age gaps of a quarter century are not uncommon Hell, when I was 37 / 38 / 39 I was dating a 6' performance artist for 3 years when she was 21 / 22 / 23 ... so that set the bar for me, so now I'm 60 (with a 6 pack) I wont date by upper age, but by CONDITION. I simply cant find women over 45 who are in the kind of shape I still am, so there's that You KNOW from your research that a woman changes as she ages. Her hopes, dreams, desires, needs, goals, ambitions & fears all pivot with every decade. A 24 yo single mother of 2 will LEAP at a 54 yo socially calibrated, in shape gentleman millionaire. Were this not so, SugarDaddy.com / SecretWish.com / AsleyMadison.com & LEGIONS of other sites catering to this HUGE demand simply wouldn't exist Your advice holds for average Beta providers, with average looks & average incomes (to quote someone who posted above ... "We were in an open relationship ... she saw me as dependable ... but I did show her the 'girlfriend experience' and I think she liked it" ~ I mean, c'mon, that's as Beta as it gets FFS) ... but this isn't your entire audience mate. So, I have to disagree with these way-too-broad brushstrokes, as painted thru YOUR lens ... & that of your 'old' buddy the positively ancient 32 yo James Tusk {rolls eyes} No offense intended, group may contain nuts

David

When an older guy tries to act and dress like a younger guy because he thinks it’ll make him look like he has more in common with younger women, then he is essentially trying to seek validation from younger women and he discards all the inherent value he’s supposed to have as an older, wiser man. This is when it looks creepy. If you're hanging out at venues that you know are going to be full of younger women (nightclubs, universities etc) and you're an older guy, you're essentially falling into the girls' frame. You're essentially communicating you don't have anything else going on in your life more engaging than chasing young tail, and that's hugely unattractive. As an older man, young women should fall into your frame, not the other way around.

Communicate With Confidence

I think it’s ok for men to be attracted to young women but like you said it doesn’t seem right when our media and culture idolizes and markets young teenage features to the extent of almost having features of a preteen child, Especially in porn where actors wear bright accessories like pink hair bands, child like clothing, pigtails, and even choosing actors that look smaller and almost like actual kids. I think this also shows an issue in our society we’re theres a lot encouragement for girls in puberty to try to stay as girls and not become woman. Ive noticed this especially in the character Cassie on the show skins. I’d like to hear what people think about this. Also Alex please bring back your podcasts I loved listening while working and made it easy to get work done.

kail higuchi

I pulled it off because we were in an open relationship. But what got us together was one of her friends. We ended up spending a lot of time together because her best girl/friend was a friend of mine. I think it all started because I treated her like a person and asked her about her plans for the future and actually cared and supported her in what she did. l also think it was inevitable because I'm a nice guy (not trying to say im better than other people). I also picked her up twice when she was stuck at a friend's house and she saw me as dependable. I wasn't going out of my way, but I did show her the "girlfriend experience " with me and I think she liked it. She also went out with other guys but ultimately would dump them. She would sometimes show me text of them trying to get back with her. I know it's weird.. but we did become friends. How it ended was she moved and she wanted to start "fresh" also she moved in with her father

Wild_Card

How'd you pull that off? And how did you relate?

beret-doppelganger

Older men should not date younger women! .. 😏 leave them all to me. I'm 40 and I still dated a 19 year old a year ago. Just be aware that young girls are ditzy and will keep you up late

Wild_Card