PATREON EXCLUSIVE: 20 Yr Old Girl Wants To Stop Friend-Zoning Guys

"They are so needy (lonely and/or horny) and so unaware, misguided and clueless about reading the signs of a woman (or lack thereof) " yeah that sounds familliar. but it was nievity and desperassion and hurt, boy it hurt. and i feel slightly defensive towards my simply ignorant former self being called "a scum bag" "waig for him to hit rock bottom where he wll desire change of his own accord, (after a mysogynistic phase)" Yep, checks out. but i wonder if that is the only way. rock bottom is a dangerous hole. if i could have spreaded m past self that.. if i can spare others tht. that a noble persuit but as in the movie "v for vendetta" shows. there is a rebirth that happens at rock bottom.

Peter

Man don't sexualize woman that don't sexualize themselves...in general. ... Things don't happen in a vacuum or it wasn't one sided with these older guys it seems we are getting one side of a multi sided situation. And understanding that in general girls don't match words with action or action with intention it difficult for me to simply take her at her word.... becoming more masculine would make sense if her perception of events are accurate...but even if it makes sense it's unnecessary... all she needs to do is be smarter about not dating losers...being smarter about you choices doesn't require masculinity.... Codependence is not negative this is exactly how a relationship is supposed to function. If they are not dependent on one another they will depend on someone or something else. Codependence is always present in a relationship the question is ... Is your partners dependence with you or elsewhere.... Never heard how the friend zone issue happens to woman in the context of the subject...she's intentionally try to friends zone guys... friend zone comes from when the guy wants more and she doesn't so how can you miss understand that. My friend zone is not the right label....I think most guys specially older man have had their time energy and resources wasted by woman with good intentions that they are not interested in taking the chance of this innocent friendship turning into pay my bills....a little disappointed in this response but I guess if you are taking everything at face value but we know that's a effort in futility.

Yep

Unsure what a woman like yourself with a husband and no children has to gain from a forum like this. Very suspicious, your behavior. Is this some form of maternal outlet to compensate for not having kids?

I've seen many online women profiles literally requesting a 'friends first and then see what happens' approach. Also, while trying to re-attract my last girlfriend after a break up she claimed that her prior husband started out as a friend first, the message being that me being her friend was a real path forward. I did this for awhile, but was explicitly clear about what I sought. If you don't volunteer for the friend zone, they will recruit you. Beware.

Todd McDaniels

so many of these females have been burned by beta males that used her compassion to manipulate her, or abusive alphas that used physical aggression to make her submit, which made them hard to open up themselves emotionally due to very huge walls protecting them .

I think that's what I'd say, too. I guess I was mostly thinking of interest and just noticing. Like for me as a guy, I'm automatically interested to get to know a pretty girl. She didn't have to do anything. Contrast that with my experience where I spent over a decade, half my life trying and working to be an interesting person to others so I'd get noticed. At least now, most people don't try to avoid me anymore. I guess all I'm saying it'd be kinda nice to have at least some initial attraction so I'd at least have a chance to show who I really am.

I think the big problem with the friendzone is that it involves dishonesty from both sides. In the man's case, he is hiding how he truly feels and his ultimate goal with the hopes that she will warm up to him over time. From her side, she knows how he feels about her but avoids an unambiguous rejection because she likes the attention and fears that honesty would lead the friendship to end. In my younger years, I truly believed that romance with women would follow if I befriended them first. The women I befriended would have done me a favor if they would have made my prospects with thiem clear. I would not have wasted my time and would have found happiness with another woman. Instead, she just perpetuated my belief that I was unlovable.

Michael Carleton

Can I ask a question? What is an example of a demonstrable behavior that indicates to you someone recognizes/notices your inner qualities? Is direct verbal acknowledgment needed? E.g “I think you are really intelligent, thoughtful, confident, etc.” Or do other behaviors translate? E.g someone comes to you about something because they know they can rely on you for advice, help, solving a problem, comfort, support... or on the flip side, know you need an ear, shoulder, distraction, pat on the back, etc. I was just wondering if there are male/female differences here.

The only advise that I can give is (and this applies to both men and women) that you should never feel responsible for someone else's feelings, no matter how compassionate you are. If you are truly sympathetic to someone, realise that the best thing you can do for them is to not steal their opportunity to learn and grow by dealing with their own emotions. That said, maybe you're mother Theresa and you have taken it upon yourself to help someone in any way you can. In that particular instance, realise that you offering someone else help also means you expect nothing in return, and should not feel embittered, ashamed or frustrated by how someone pays you back (or doesn't) for your time and effort. For if you are truly giving, you should act so selflessly and never expect anything in return.

At the beginning of the letter, she mentioned that she wanted to be noticed for her inner qualities, not her outer. As a guy, it has been my experience that girls (or really anyone for that matter) don't recognize my inner qualities or my outer qualities. Maybe I'm just ignorant, but I feel like I'd rather be noticed by one small aspect of me, than not noticed at all.

Her comment about “friendzoning” guys in her 30s made me chuckle a little because I actually do feel that way a little now that I am in my 40s - I think I come off as slightly maternal (or as a cool Aunt maybe LOL). Of course, I only “befriend” men when I’m with my husband or at work (so that may play a more mitigating factor than age in some situations.) But it’s crazy how much of a relief it is to be able to do so and to be totally genuine, caring, open hearted, and interested in what a guy has to say and not worry so much about the “what if he thinks...” scenarios. For example, my husband and I have become friendly with a few older guys who frequent the same Irish pub we go to. They are 50/60s - all divorced older men who live alone and never seem to date. And one of them bought me and my husband a few rounds of drinks. I was tipsy and smiling and grateful and offered him a hug in thanks. He seemed taken aback; frozen at first until he fully relaxed into it. And before he left he initiated a hug goodbye as well. It dawned on me that it may have been a while since he had been hugged. The nurturing part of me that believes touch is very important was so glad I could share that with him freely without the worry of sexual male/female dynamics.

I have been in some tough situations with men like that and I do think I have it down to an art. Before I was with my boyfriend if I was in the process of having a male friend the big question is "what is the context you are meeting him?" Is it in a class? Online? Mutual interest? Through other people in your circle? These questions are important. Straight away if he wants to create friendship (assuming he is making the effort with you first and initiating) think about the reasons why he is chosing you specifically and if the only thing is beauty or sexual availibity then big red flag (he hasn't even heard you have an interesting discussion). Avoid a man who compliments without a valid reason. If you initiate the friendship then you have control and you can set the boundaries, for instance you could say to him "hey I really like you and want to make sure we are on the same page but I want to be friends, let's not ignore that we are a man and woman which could cause a problem if one of us wants something more but I am going to put my cards on the table and say that I am not interested in a relationship and never will as I don't think we are romantically compatible" if he has a bad reaction it isn't your job to baby him but if he is someone you care about then maybe a "I am sorry if this is a bit hurtful but I tell this to all male friends I care about to avoid them feeling like their time is wasted down the line". If he expects more from you then the problem is with him. If he gets a little hurt by the rejection but wants to continue the friendship you have your answer but he might keep pushing you for something more and I would cut contact if that is the case because it just gets messy.

Alisha

Now that was interesting! I've got some thoughts on that. - "Your content is mysogynistic" Over the recent years, as the latest wave of feminism has been spreading that word has been increasingly used as a synonym to "(offensive towards /) uncomfortable for women". That's not what it means of course but that's how it's widely interpreted in broader culture. Maybe I'm wrong and people do use it with it's proper meaning but in interpreting it as "uncomfortable" it makes it much easier for the accused to handle without becoming defensive or loosing their temper. At the least it is meta-true which is truer than true according to JBP ;) - Dealing with / Befriending betas/blue-pillers/Nice-Guys - hope lettergirl reads this! As a former beta/bp/ng I (now) wholeheartedly tell you: Don't. Do not try to help him. At least not more than dropping a truth bomb before cutting ties if you're feeling curageos and can be confident he won't get physical about it. You're not doing anyone a service by continuing to be friends with him - least yourself. They are so needy (lonely and/or horny) and so unaware, misguided and clueless about reading the signs of a woman (or lack thereof) that you just cannot win. You just can't. Everything you do will be interpreted as a sign of affection through the weirdest mind twists you cannot even imagine. With creeps it's easy but if he's somewhat likeable like the herb-guy it can be hard to cut ties. If you provide friendship he will want more, because he thinks he's owed that, and he will always harbor anger towards you because he's trying to please you so hard. That will occasionally be directed towards you (be careful when he's drunk!). The anger comes mostly from covert contracts, if you want to read up on it. When you cut ties he will also be angry and hurt but then at least it won't be your problem anymore - and it shouldn't be. He needs to deeply and profoundly question himself and gain much, much more self awareness but he needs to do it himself. The awareness part is important because even though these people can be highly manipulative, they're barely conscious about it. There is nothing, absolutely nothing you can do to help him. Holding up a mirror will only be met with anger with little to no effect. Sadly, the thing that works best is to be rejected often enough to trigger deep (hopefully temporary mysogyny and) introspection, then use the anger to look at how he deals with people (it's usually a general problem manifesting itself strongest and most visible with women) and rebuild himself - or remain angry and lonely (or in a toxic relationship) forever.

rumlyne

AG, it's seriously not a bad idea to start making content geared towards women helping them understand men better. Possibly open up a new YouTube channel if you think you're main channel has already been pigeonholed into explaining female nature only.

Ashwin Srinivas

Blue pill / betas need to learn to quickly polarize.. then and if it's a no move on.. esp if the girl is a nice one with good intentions.. and yeah on the girls side it's best to make things absolutely clear to the dude..