Dr. John interviews Netflix Director Skye Borgman. They talk Colby.
Added 2022-09-15 21:50:51 +0000 UTCThis is the RSS feed audio, and below is the link to your ad-free, early access video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO35VgPigcA
Skye Borgman is the Director of "Sins of our Mother" the Netflix documentary about the Daybell case. She is also the director of other true crime docs you've likely seen.
We will be sharing this interview on YouTube tomorrow, but we will be cutting some of it due to the sensitive nature of the conversation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO35VgPigcA
Tomorrow, for TGIF, John and I will be going live to discuss the film. I've watched it, John hasn't, but we will be watching it together later tonight. #datenight
If you've had the chance to see Skye's latest film, what are your thoughts? We'll see you on YouTube tomorrow night, 7pm pacific!
Comments
I have heard the story of The Girl in the Picture before the doc came out and I was horrified at what she endured. I also have the books written about her. the first one before they even realized that wasn't her real identity. Abducted in plain sight was insane! This man slept with the parents and lord the whole story unbelievable. The Daybed case is so sad and it's hard to even try to understand how these 2 innocent children lost their lives because they were a hinderance. I am sure it is hard for Colby to take the mother who raised him and the woman and mother she is today is the same space. How do you reconcile that. I am sure it makes you question everything you knew.
Leslie
2023-01-04 18:40:49 +0000 UTCThanks for sharing your thoughts. Please know we aren’t assuming this is his first offense. Colby is the subject matter of the documentary and how we know Skye, thus discussing him, and how John Skye and Colby worked together (Kelsee was not part of that work with them) likely felt natural for Skye and John to talk about. We discuss in detail Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell on our original podcast. We delve into “hidden motives” and our original podcast centered around understanding the criminals, but also dedicate our podcast to the victims, and we hope we have helped them. We believe understanding criminals/crime helps us understand so much more, even about ourselves. But please know that Kelsee was originally brought up in this interview and we were stopped by Skye who requested we edit it. She felt strongly about giving the victim privacy during our discussion. John also works with victims. He was the clinical director of Family and Child Treatment Center 10 years. Thank you for sharing that you feel we are victim centered. We strive to be. Yet, we want our conversations to be natural and flow. This is where this conversation took Skye and John. We never excuse Colby’s actions. We never victim shame anyone. It was moreso an intimate convo without any expectation of where it would lead, and no planned angle.
Lauren and John Matthias
2022-10-23 06:09:46 +0000 UTCIt was edited. If you notice, it was just Janice’s voice. It could be easily edited. Telling a long story for a documentary is an art in itself and they chose to not bring Stacey in so that viewers could learn the names of children that would be discussed in texts and foia docs to help viewers more easily understand. The fewer the better. Not bringing her into the story was Netflix’s choice.
Lauren and John Matthias
2022-10-22 12:40:27 +0000 UTCWe will tell her!
Lauren and John Matthias
2022-10-22 12:34:20 +0000 UTCI think it should be made clear the experts who stated they didn’t believe Colby never worked with Colby, never interviewed Colby, and didn’t have access to his information. The psychologist who did assess Colby believed Colby was abused. He’s not been interviewed. There is a lot of confusion around this. We have all of the discovery. Joe was also arrested for family violence for physically assaulting Lori, and in his evaluation with an actual psychologist (not Vivian) he scored higher on the malingering scale. There is quite a lot of the docs that are not talked about publicly. We don’t choose to share publicly because, as you say, Joe is dead. Yet, it’s also difficult for us to see a victim of abuse not believed and shamed publicly online and being revictimized after his whole family was murdered. (not referring to you, this is a great place for this convo!) I mean on fb, etc. But I think the most compelling piece of evidence are Colby’s words. While Lori likely coached him to increase his allegations, and that is a shameful thing on Lori’s part and shows more of what Colby had to deal with growing up, she wasn’t in the room with Colby during his initial police report when Colby was 10, and she certainly isn’t coaching him now. He stated Joe abused him and gives great detail. We are listening, and I think Netflix listened too. In fact, without enough compelling evidence Netflix would never publish what they did. They worked on this story for 2 years and investigated with deep care. What we know about Joe—it’s not impossible. And that doesn’t mean Lori is a saint if Joe is an abuser. Clearly she is far from. John and I believe Colby was abused by Joe. Lori was abused by him. Witnesses called 911 about the assault when he was arrested. That doesn’t mean she didn’t abuse him either, especially if she coached her children to tell lies. That is also abuse.
Lauren and John Matthias
2022-10-22 12:32:27 +0000 UTCDo we know why Staci- the sister who died of anorexia- was completely left out of the family tree? I actually felt a lot of sympathy for Janice, and believe her when she says she was in denial. But, I’m wondering if it was her choice to ignore her other daughter, or a result of editing, since Staci is not a player in the case.
Katie Marlowe
2022-09-19 14:37:35 +0000 UTCI have watched the documentary twice now, already. I’m really heartbroken for Colby, and it struck me over and over how accurate Dr. J was in response to the recently dropped charge of SA. Most SA acts are about control, power, humiliation. But, as John pointed out, Colby must have been desperate to connect with Kelsie, as she is clearly his rock. The only anchor he’s had, in the storm that is his life, since all this began. Not that it’s an excuse. But it is an explanation that at least helps us understand what would motivate him to do something so awful.
Katie Marlowe
2022-09-19 14:30:24 +0000 UTCI get your point, and honestly, I have often wondered if Colby’s memory of SA by Joe wasn’t planted somehow by Lori’s insistence. However, having heard his account in the doc, I do believe him now. . People are complicated. Joe Ryan could have been a victim and a perpetrator. It doesn’t make murdering him okay.
Katie Marlowe
2022-09-19 14:21:05 +0000 UTCAlso the fact that charges were dropped is irrelevant. Less than 1% of rapists are actually convicted of a crime. He admitted to police that he raped her so I find it very concerning that charges were dropped.
Anabel Garner
2022-09-17 16:51:05 +0000 UTCAnnie Cushing (Joe’s sister) has talked about Joe’s harsh and abusive behavior that she witnessed. Joe and his siblings were raised in the foster care system. She never witnessed SA but didn’t discount it either.
Debi
2022-09-17 04:59:49 +0000 UTCI think you two are showing your bias in favor Colby which is disappointing. I’m surprised you are assuming this is his first offense towards his wife. We know how under-reported domestic violence is, in all its forms, including coercive control. It is heartbreaking what he has done to his long time main support system- Kelsea- and his two young daughters. I wish you had focused more on his victims rather than him in this interview. Maybe I’m just not ready for the compassion towards a perpetrator. It seems like he is being given a pass because of his enormous trauma, and even more disgustingly, because his victim was his own wife (there are lots of comments about this out there on FB as I’m sure you have seen). This is typical- not holding male perpetrators accountable for the harm that is done to the women in their lives. It’s inexcusable to me. Usually you are so victim centered, as well as anti- coercive control and against violence towards women, even in marriage. I found this overly sentimental towards Colby. I understand John works with offenders. Indeed, treating offenders with humanity and getting them help for their toxic traits is the change we need to see in this world. However I wish there had been more criticism of the toxic traits that led to this nightmare to begin with.
Anabel Garner
2022-09-17 03:11:05 +0000 UTCKate Casey (Reality Life with Kate Casey Podcast) interviews Skye and Dr John on one of her podcasts. Skye discusses this in her portion. Dr John knocks it out of the park as usual as well.
CuriousinColorado
2022-09-17 00:32:32 +0000 UTCIf you're in touch with Skye, please tell her she and her team did an amazing job. The way each bit of information was presented and woven together was brilliant. I think someone who never heard of the case could watch this and have an understanding of most of what we know so far and given how many people are involved and all of the complexities, that's quite an accomplishment. Truly well done. Dr. John might not have had a big chunk of time but his contribution to the story was very important. Excellent!
Jana Rodgers
2022-09-16 23:50:10 +0000 UTCThere is something that has been bugging me about the Netflix Documentary but I did not realize what it was until I listened to Dr. John and Skye's discussion or it might have been in the Kate Casey Reality Life podcast (I listened to them both last evening). Dr John was discussing Lori's diagnosis and he made the statement “We have to trust the professionals” since we do not know and we are not in the room while they are talking to Lori. We can speculate all day, but we really do not know without the reports. That being said, one of the items that bothered me with the movie is Colby’s abuse. I appreciate Dr. Johns comment that Colby shows the signs of abuse and I agree that Colby has been subject to many forms of abuse in his life. I have no concept of what it would be like to walk in his shoes. In the documentary we were led to believe that Joe was the perpetrator of Colby’s SA. Colby mentions the physical abuse with being smacked on the back of his head and lack of patience for anything he did as a young boy from Joe. Knowing what we know now about all of the characters in the Cox family unit, there are several suspects of who his perpetrator could have been. Joe is no longer living and I honestly feel he was most likely a victim of Lori’s as well. He is not here to tell his story, but we do have the reports from the “professionals” who worked with Tylee and Colby when the Lori/Joe divorce was going on that dispute the SA abuse in regards to Joe. We also have the reports from Cheryl regarding the things that happened to her and Charles’ sons and the inappropriate behavior and text messages from Colby towards her sons. We have learned over the last several years that it appeared boundaries (including sexual boundaries) were very loose or non-existent in their home. I am not sure why it bothers me so much that the messaging about Joe being the SA perpetrator. When I heard Dr. Johns comment “we have to trust the professionals”, that is when it made sense; we are not trusting the professionals and their reports that worked with Colby and Tylee as children. I know it must have been very difficult to try to tell this whole story in three episodes and not all details can be shared….but if for some reason it was not Joe, then we are continuing the injustice to Joe after his death and years he had to deal with Lori and Alex. To end this on a positive note, Skye made the comment that she hoped her documentary would bring about conversation and that she has done.
Jean Georgitso
2022-09-16 21:57:24 +0000 UTCThe one thing that stood out to me was Melani P. barely got a mention. I think she played a big part of this story. Also, Janis never once mentions Stacy or the child they lost in infancy. Weird. I don’t know how you could tell a story this big. I think it would take more than three 45 minute episodes.
Tracy Warberg Holliday
2022-09-16 19:12:58 +0000 UTCVery well said. It’s so important to have that advocate and help.
Lauren and John Matthias
2022-09-16 16:40:40 +0000 UTCThank you for this interview, It gave me a lot to think about and reflect on. One thing as a nurse I couldn’t help but think of is when a patient is sick physically they don’t have the “stamina “ to stand up for themselves so they need an advocate like a nurse or a family member to make sure their needs are taken care of. When in the interview you all mentioned how some victims may not have the emotional stamina to help themselves, it really shows us that some may really need someone that can step in and be an advocate for them and help them fight until they can stand on their own. It may be a way we can help.
Christine
2022-09-16 14:49:14 +0000 UTCIt will just be the three episodes. It’s a long movie they cut into episodes to make it more digestible. They did have many more interviews and footage, but in the end they had to decide how to tell the story in just three episodes. I wish it was longer
Lauren and John Matthias
2022-09-16 13:23:57 +0000 UTCIs it just the 3 episodes? Will there be more? Sounds like they have so so many interviews
Crystal Swannack
2022-09-16 06:12:17 +0000 UTCGreat interview! So many things covered from varying angles, showing the nuances and lack of black and white - some ugly of humanity. What to help DV victims ? Safe housing- ( one of the main reasons people don’t leave is they have nowhere safe to go to- not everyone considers going to family and involving them or putting them at risk ) Judges- frequently have too much discretion and (in Australia anyway ) do not treat DV crimes the way they would if a stranger had committed them. Police work hard to gather evidence and present a case- judge gives lenient non custodial sentence this often putting the victims in more danger for speaking up. For myself and others I know- we didn’t need educating about DV. We knew exactly what was happening and knew it wasn’t ok. But in most our cases it was simple housing and protection we needed. The counselling and other stuff came later but survival basics were key to helping us feel there was a safety net to fall into. I like what John said about the danger of diving too deeply into religion with grief or as a way to get through it. I think it can be a way to try to by-pass grief- avoid. Just think of the dead as still alive and you can try to ignore the reality. Which is understandable of course, but I find my non/less believing friends seem to handle grief better. They’re angry and sad and don’t have any “they’re in a better place “ My neighbour lost her daughter in an accident and bit someone’s head off who said that to her. “No she’s not- she’s dead. She’s gone. And it was a waste because of a stupid car accident “ But the thing is- she was still going to always be sad about it- but it meant she could move through and accept the horrible reality and also then embrace the valuable existence her daughter had and the times they shared. Her life was especially valuable because it was finite. But everyone handles stuff their own way. One things for sure is that people I know who have experienced trauma or grief and not handled it. Those who keep it to themselves or avoid it. They are often the ones who end up hurting themselves or others. I find those who embrace the horrible reality and are open about their past, seem to be able to not carry it as much with them. Or write it into a story as early chapters without shame. But that it’s not the whole story or who they are entirely. Fresh air is good for wounds.
Tad Auty
2022-09-16 04:58:46 +0000 UTCUnfortunately male victims are often overlooked - in the training for DV in Australia they tend to push the “ but what did HE do? “ Or “ he’s maybe an abuser making this up as a way to abuse “ And Lori knew how to play into that. What makes me especially angry is that Melanie Gibb was there- hearing the allegations about whacky beliefs and Loris behaviour towards Charles. MG keeps trying to make out she wasn’t all in- if she had one doubt or ANY sense of morality, she could have left that interview and spoken to another officer while Lori was in there. She could have said “ Charles is telling the truth- we have been praying for Charles to die - Lori has said she wanted to kill her last husband- and her brother even tried to kill him!” Of course the police doing their job and ignoring gender and looking at evidence would have been great as well- but as for who knew what was going on? Melanie Gibb could have stopped a lot of this happening but she sat in that room- she knew Charles was on the hit list- and she only started speaking up when she had no choice and wanted to save her own ass and was worried about what people thought of her. I hate seeing the footage of Charles- my friend had a psycho ex girlfriend and I know what he endured trying to make his space safe and protect his kids. I even went to the police one day with him, his phone full of abuse and threats from her. And he was told “ Suck it up- man up. Just ignore it” But he couldn’t- because they shared kids. And he had to read her texts because very occasionally they were relating to the kids. I hope that with more awareness around coercive control as long as it’s applied to both genders, maybe all victims reporting will be listened to instead of being assumed to be asking for it or weak or crazy.
Tad Auty
2022-09-16 04:37:27 +0000 UTCI love Dr. Babes part so far!!!
Crystal Swannack
2022-09-16 04:24:12 +0000 UTCI've watched the documentary and have started watching again. There were not too many surprises, but I get sick everytime I see how the Chandler police codify and allowed Lori to get away with her lies over & over again. Poor Charles didn't stand a chance. I cried just thinking about everything he went through. He truly wanted to protect his family, but unfortunately, he couldn't. The Arizona police should have arrested them both that day and put the children in protected custody with other family members. This is the part of the story I don't understand! The children and Tammy would still be alive 😭
Debra Rivera
2022-09-16 03:31:19 +0000 UTCLoved the conversation. Made me re-think some recent thoughts I have had. Appreciate the around the dinner table type of recording.
Jean Georgitso
2022-09-16 02:48:08 +0000 UTCI enjoyed this interview with Skye. Sadly, Lori’s name will be a household name globally after sins of our mother. It’s all a tragedy. I wished we could have seen you Lauren but it was great seeing Dr. John on the Netflix docu. I watched it today with my sister-in-law, here in Indiana. I told her Dr. John and Lauren were right about Chad Daybell and Brian Laundry. I completely trust you both. It’s so hard to see who the victims are, without knowing what to look for. I feel wiser after listening to you two. Like I say you are a power couple! xo
ShaRee
2022-09-16 01:59:40 +0000 UTCI thought Sins of Our Mother was very well done! I enjoyed the dialogue between Dr John and Skye! I always enjoy hearing perspectives of Dr John & Lauren! This interview was exceptional! Thoroughly enjoyed!
Sue Komernicky
2022-09-16 00:03:41 +0000 UTCWhat a beautiful interview with Skye. It reminded me of your very first podcast and the insightful, thought provoking conversation. It also reminded me of the conversation about Gabby Petito. Lauren, your journalistic integrity and Dr. John’s expertise differentiate you from all the rest. Thank you🥰
Debi
2022-09-15 23:58:13 +0000 UTCI think I said this somewhere else, but if they put in everything, it would have to be 20 episodes.
Emily Lou
2022-09-15 23:54:47 +0000 UTCDr John/Babe did so well! Loved his segments in the documentary.
Emily Lou
2022-09-15 23:50:20 +0000 UTCI believe it was editing. If you notice, you don't "see" Janis say it. It's her voice and that can easily be edited. I assume Netflix wanted to keep it simple for the documentary so that listeners new to the case could understand all of the texts and communication from the foia docs. That is my guess.
Lauren and John Matthias
2022-09-15 22:38:49 +0000 UTCWhy was Stacy Cox not mentioned in Cox family. Janice totally left her out.
Kandi
2022-09-15 22:30:59 +0000 UTC
