Vinland Saga S2 Episode 9
Added 2024-12-12 17:52:54 +0000 UTCComments
Yeah Thors wasnt even close to believing in complete and blind pacifism.
Carl Carlsonn
2025-01-02 07:13:18 +0000 UTCAlso Violence and killing are two different things. Thors did use violence and was still willing. Its just when violence came up he only used his fists and not a sword. Nothing they said was wrong at all. I think you also misunderstand Thors as well, he only took it as far as being a murderer. Thors would not agree with COMPLETE pacifism either.
Carl Carlsonn
2025-01-02 07:10:00 +0000 UTCWhen I first watched this episode, I had similar thoughts about how the author might handle the story moving forward. I was a bit anxious that the story is being driven into a corner bereft of nuance and complexity. What helped was that I remembered I was watching some of the best anime writing ever written even back in season 1. Even in the first season, the author went out of their way to test Thorfinn's intentions and methods. There was no reason for me to think he wouldn't be doing that in this season as well. In the same way that the first season is a prologue, Thorfinn is just in the beginning of embodying a principle. He believes in something now. Whether or not it's right or wrong hasn't been decided yet — regardless of what the author believes. Anyway, my recommendation for now is to keep trusting the author! He hasn't let you down so far! Enjoying the reactions!
Kyle Geroche
2024-12-30 18:59:06 +0000 UTCI never understood the fact that people says "But Thors used violence to protect people" when Thors himself said that he's not a warrior yet, because he needed a sword (which represents whatever you use to hurt someone) and true warriors don't need it. But even ignoring that, what's important is the fact that Thorfinn hit someone out of rage, not for self defense or anything like that. That's why Thorfinn did the wrong thing. I'm a little disappointed of this reaction ngl, but I trust you will get it at the end, there's a lot of episodes and you are really smart.
Miguel Orellana
2024-12-21 06:56:52 +0000 UTCI think Thorfinn after this episode really is at the "blind pacifist" stage, but that it's not something that will last very long indeed. Nor is it the will of the author at all, even if that really seems like it at this point considering even Thors seems that way (2 possibilities: 1. it's in Thorfinn's mind so whatever it's not Thors, but then it's still weird 2. the author was just developing his ideas and changed his mind, understanding things are not so simple).
Fabien
2024-12-18 02:53:13 +0000 UTCWell the story is taking place in the 11th century, try to be a pacifist during that time period, without even defending yourself, and find out what happens. Societies were violent because it was the only way things could work, all those that didn't follow that paradygm were conquered or destroyed by others. It's not even societal at the root, since nature itself is all about competition, generally in a violent way. Even nowadays, some forms of violence is necessary sometimes. In middle school I wasn't bullied only because I had defended myself, they went after other people later. It's difficult to really know "when" violence is the best answer (it also got me in trouble once) and when it will only make things worse, but it's undeniable that it "can" make things better in some cases.
Fabien
2024-12-18 02:43:22 +0000 UTCI agree, the idea of society shaping our views on violence is an important thing to consider and one of the stated reasons why the mangaka chose Viking society as the historical setting for exploring it. When an extreme level of violence was the most practical and the most socially reinforced approach to confrontation (to the point of it being given religious significance), then it becomes even more interesting that there must have been some people that initially rejected that approach for those ideas to have disappeared. I actually spent a lot of time thinking about violence having traveled to quite a few extremely dangerous places around the world and being involved in the combat sports world (training muay thai in Thailand). Looking back, the times where I've personally encountered violence was me wandering into a place where I could've expected it, or me needlessly escalating small slights (e.g. getting ripped off by taxi drivers, calling out rude people, etc.). I'm pretty sure now that 'being ready to use violence' likely increased my chances of being a victim of violence rather than decreasing it. That's completely different from being aware of how senseless and random violent encounters can be and being mindful of how to avoid them. Unless your job requires you to use violence in some way, you're always going to be at a disadvantage trying to engage with anyone whose job it is to use it on you. And having a minor commitment to learning self-defense is as helpful as none at all.
Nam Le
2024-12-16 18:15:37 +0000 UTCReally depends on where you live, one's perception of violence changes a lot with social context, and yeah there are a lot of times when violence is in fact the only option to a lot of problems and situations, especially if your country has higher crimerates or the people are more ill tempered.
Enemy
2024-12-16 10:21:05 +0000 UTCIt's kinda wild how resistant you guys are to the idea of not having to use violence. I don't think I've ever been in a situation where I felt violence was the best or even a good option. And I've been in some bad situations before. Do you guys live somewhere really dangerous or something?
Nam Le
2024-12-16 07:06:39 +0000 UTCThors used violence in a controlled way. But it ended up being the wrong choice once we actually got to know the sort of things Askeladd actually cared about. At the time, he seemed like just a villain thrown in the path of our heroes to be dealt with using violence. But Askeladd ended up being the most complex character on this show and someone who we know could've been reasoned with, especially by a 'beautiful' leader like Thors. Thors never considered that route, despite Askeladd dropping multiple hints during the fight. That's one of the big points I feel the author is making about violence in anime. When we set up ourselves to be the hero of our own story and justified in using violence, the people we come across are no longer people but just punching bags for our own personal growth. Just like how slaves in Season 1 were just background tragedies we accepted without much thought, antagonists (even the biggest of assholes) are also people with their own agency and motivations. I think it's a more interesting setup for future confrontations where some can be settled without violence and some are unavoidable. Any vow that's worth making is going to involve difficulty holding up to it. I don't the author is setting us up to blindly follow pacificism as dogma. Instead I think it'll be a guiding principle that is going to inform future confrontations, while not being determinative.
Nam Le
2024-12-16 03:14:48 +0000 UTCDear Wes and Steph, I guarantee you that the author is extremely aware that as long as one or more humans exist, war and slavery will continue. Trust. The balance between pursuing violence to rightly defend the weak and the pursuing pacifism to break the cycle of revenge will be explored thoroughly in due time. The author acknowledges that we have opposition and adversaries, but is making the point that we don’t have enemies the way that a warrior culture thinks of enemies - that the battlefield is glorious, and violence and revenge is the way to live. As a Christian I believe one reason Vinland has been so compelling to many is that Thorfinn gradually progresses to a surprisingly biblical worldview on violence and pacifism.
Whammadoodoo
2024-12-14 17:15:36 +0000 UTCAt some point, I wrote "Freyja's meader" lol but my phone won't fix it.. I meant "Meadow"
Chels
2024-12-14 01:28:11 +0000 UTCHmm.. watching this story (especially with others) I have to separate what the story depicts from the knowledge and culture of Norwegian countries and their history or religious beliefs. 😅 this episode in particular I think is a fantastic episode for the story, Thorfinn's character growth, the author's message and so on, but I think people take away the same view of Vikingr that the medieval monks propagated, taking advantage of the fact that Norse paganism and the culture it feeds is all oral tradition. Modern Anthropologists, Norse Pagans and Scandinavian people are trying to undo the overtly negative imagery and media keeps using the information written from monk foreigners to paint a certain picture. So ya.. this episode always makes me feel a little conflicted. 😅 One thing I think the ep did write well was when Thorfinn is like "Is this Valhalla?" And Askeladd laughs and says "No, the afterlife would be nicer" I think one of the BIGGEST misunderstandings of Norse paganism and "Viking culture" (literally Vikingr was just a job in Scandinavian countries, but people act like Vikings were a tribe or something) is about the afterlife. Valhalla is Odin's mead hall where you can go dine with him if you were an upstanding warrior who died with honor. It has nothing to do with your kill count or how many wars you won. Odin (although flawed by fear) was mostly a God who honored those who sought something more. So Thors would be an example of the ideal warrior who would see Valhalla. An honorable warrior who died heroically and bravely to protect others under his leadership. The afterlife in Norse Paganism has many variables based on how you lived and how you died, and one was depicted in this episode. They say there is a place that's like a limbo for dishonorable warriors who rape and slaughter disgracefully, since all they knew is war, all they will know is war, so they will become draugr who endlessly fight in battles every night for eternity, losing the ability to be cleansed and be reborn. These draugr are the creatures that go on "the wild hunt" around winter. Normally, for those who didn't sacrifice themselves or commit war crimes, they all end up in helheim where they are greeted by Hel and sorted into where they go until rebirth. The better your position in the afterlife, the sooner your rebirth. Best position apart from ending up in Freyja's meader or Odin's mead hall, you will be farmer living peacefully in a mirrored version of the world (ie. How Thorfinn dreams of laying in a meadow) worst case scenario that isn't one of the punishments is you are the grain getting harvested over and over by the other souls until your soul gets cleansed. The really bad punishments reserved for thieves, rapists, and so on include various kinds of limbo like when you go to Helheim, instead of being greeted by Hel, you are made to wait in the endless darkness, freezing to "death" while listening to the sounds of helhounds that want to eat you, until she decides to come pick you up and put you in the afterlife. The endless battle one for bad warriors, and I think there was one more, but it is more uncommonly talked about so I forget. Many people think that things like rape, murder, and doing whatever they wanted was encouraged, but they did have laws, and the religion did punish evil. Do remember, one of the most powerful deities that was scarier than Odin himself who even he wouldn't fuck with, was Freyja, queen of the Vanir and mother of witches who had a special place in her heart and her meadow for women who killed their rapists and cheating husbands. Just like every medieval culture, it was constant warfare and human violations, but divorce was allowed, punishments for rapists that included castration, and even the abuse of slaves was a no-no. If you raped another person's slave, you could be punished by death depending on the tribe and time period. (Slightly irrelevant to the topic, but I saw quite a few comments making some claims that frustrate me)
Chels
2024-12-14 01:15:26 +0000 UTCThe author does test Thorfinn a lot. But you have to be patient, don't expect the author test it to extreme in this season. Keep in mind, there is two more season after this, where the author will keep on testing Thorfinn's ideal even more extreme and see how Thorfin ideal evolve. So, please keep on following the story to the end. This season is more about Thorfinn's enlightenment. The author does put his ideal through Throfinn, but he is always honest about the challenges. He doesn't lie about the difficulty and the cost of such ideal.
James Jaya
2024-12-14 00:11:17 +0000 UTCI wish I was smart enough to read Lewis’ essay work, I feel the gears in my head grind after a couple paragraphs. Brilliant guy for sure
Adam Young
2024-12-13 22:28:13 +0000 UTCThe most major point in this episode is that the field has already been ruined, so there's no "protecting it" anymore. When Thorfinn struck, it was out of rage. He let his anger overtake him, and that's where the fault lies. Thors said that the dagger he gave him was for protection, showing that self-defense is okay, but Thorfinn instead used if for senseless violence driven by hate. I think you're right though that Thorfinn is taking his father's advice to an even further extreme, likely because he feels he's indebted to be as pacifist as possible due to his crimes. Anyhow, this episode is probably one of my favorite anime episodes of all time, maybe alongside Re:Zero S1E15 (Non-Directors) and OshiNoKo S1E1 and S1E6. It had a really strong impact on me personally and sort of felt like a major turning point and even culmination of the story up until this point.
David Case
2024-12-13 13:30:05 +0000 UTCOne thing about this episode that always kind of gets me is that, this is Thorfinn’s perception of Askeladd. We don’t really know if this is how he would act in this weird dream scenario but the fact Thorfinn sees him that way is both sweet and a slight bit twisted. Like he romanticized him in a way likely because of his final words.
Moroni W
2024-12-13 01:05:33 +0000 UTCI mean he is "the master" so naturally he would want to be at least a little intimidating so you dont defy him, also his son is thorgil for crying out loud if you had a family member like that I feel like you would not want to seem weak especially since the whole "iron fist ketil" thing has been going on for years especially since that legend is what inspired and motivated thorgil in the first place.
Marko Genter
2024-12-12 20:41:41 +0000 UTCYou guys might find interesting an essay CS Lewis wrote titled “The necessity of chivalry” which can be found in the book “present concerns” (or online). It tries to take a Christian approach to dealing with the issue that Christians are called to be both gentile / meek and but still show fortitude and stand up to evil. Personally, it’s been the most significant essay I’ve ever read as a young man and one I intend to show my (future) children. It’s only like 3 pages long lol.
Roy Mathew
2024-12-12 20:31:50 +0000 UTCAs you two already know, the author is sort of a pacifist, and most often, genuinely doesn't understand why people fight or commit violence. Vikings are people who will randomly go around killing, robbing, and raping people, and it is for this reason why the author needed Vikings to tell his anti-violence messages. You brought up a good point with how Thors, who started becoming a pacifist, used violence to some extent for defending his son and his fellow villagers which shows that the author is open-minded, but whether or not if true pacifism can be achieved is still an open question.
James
2024-12-12 19:58:43 +0000 UTCThe path Thorfinn is taking is quite intriguing, but for sure, you'll see in this season how it goes for him!
Kate
2024-12-12 19:09:26 +0000 UTCI don’t like how scared ketil is to speak up about things he would rather let a child get hurt or lie about his retainers cruelty instead of holding them accountable because he’s so scared of being judged or looking weak.
gr2ves
2024-12-12 18:39:11 +0000 UTC
