Anime NYC 2024: Shoji Kawamori Talks With Anime Herald

Note: Due to the time-sensitive nature of our coverage, this article will debut on the main Anime Herald site on September 23. We apologize for the inconvenience.

• Interviewer: Seth Burn

• Interview Date: 8/24/2024

ESR Gaming Network: Which Macross series is your favorite to work on?

Shoji Kawamori: I would say each of them equally. During the production process for each series, I would fall in love with it. Especially when I’m initially developing the story, but again when I’m doing the storyboards. I can’t pick one series. I love all of them.

The Beat: As the anime industry continues to expand, it becomes more important than ever to nurture new talent. What are you doing at this moment to assist the next generation of animators and directors?

Shoji Kawamori: I’m not the type of person to work closely hand in hand with any one person for an extremely long period of time. I feel that my role is more to go into a technical or vocational school or university and teaching aspiring animators or illustrators how to come up with original concepts and ideas. How to develop them into stories. What originality is. If I can teach and inspire them to come up with their own new creations, in terms of multi-dimensional world building, I will have fulfilled my role.

Manga Mavericks: Can you describe what the collaborative process was like developing Macross Plus with the late Keiko Nobumoto?

Shoji Kawamori: In terms of Macross Plus, I came up with the main story, the overall plot line, and certain details like the rival relationship, Sharon, and so forth. Then I handed it to Nobumoto-san to fill out and develop the characters more fully. She was particularly brilliant at writing dialogue. Of course we went back and forth throughout the process, but otherwise I left that up to her.

Anime Herald: In honor of your recent collaboration with Disney+, what is your favorite Disney movie?

Shoji Kawamori: I would say some of the early Disney movies inspired me and left a very strong impression on me. Especially Peter Pan and Fantasia. In terms of recent movies, Moana, especially the first half of the film.

Anime Corner: Looking back at the entire history of the Macross franchise, what do you think it was that helped it stay alive and stay so incredible for so long?

Shoji Kawamori: I grew up very much influenced by Space Battleship Yamato and Mobile Suit Gundam. I definitely wanted to create something completely different and unique from those stand out works.

I think what made it unique is that it was so realistic. I also wanted mecha that were more realistic and would function more realistically as battle machines. In particular, the Valkyries. Instead of waging war with weapons, I would wage war through song. I think those two things in particular had never been seen before in anime. I think that’s what helped it endure so long.

All Ages of Geek: Did you ever imagine that some of your work would inspire franchises like Transformers? What was it like working on that specifically?

Shoji Kawamori: I was so focused on making my own anime. I didn’t think about whether it would inspire other works at the time. In terms of Transformers, specifically, I was working with Takara, now Takara Tomy, I really loved working with them. I had already been doing some work on the Diaclone robot, which of course evolved into Transformers here. I had nothing to do with the storyline itself, but in terms of the mecha, that’s something I worked on.

It’s interesting. In terms of the Diaclone series, I worked on that pretty much solo. But when they started developing the car robot line, I was just one of several designers and staff on that project. I didn’t design all of them, I just designed a number of the transforming mecha. That you took real cars that transformed into robots, that was something that had interested me for a very long time.

But the one thing that bothered me about the car robots... I had fun developing how they would transform, but there are all of these slight paradoxes in the design of the robots. In the robot the car seat would disappear. Where would the engine go? That always bothered me, so when I designed the Valkyries for Macross, I always kept in mind that everything would exist physically in the robot as well.

I don’t know if it directly influenced or inspired it all, but I often hear from young people “Wow, Macross is so much like Top Gun!” I would say “No, no, no. Macross came first, and then came Top Gun.” I don’t know if there is a direct connection or correlation, but I do hear that a lot.

ESR Gaming Network: What inspires your work today?

Shoji Kawamori: I’m the type of person that always likes to create original anime, as opposed to adaptations. I seek to be inspired by real events and real things. For example, if I want to do a series that involves some scientific thing, I want to draw from actual science, not science fiction. Something that actually exists or has just been discovered. If I wanted to do something that involves nature or ecology, I would want to go to an exotic location where there is bountiful nature to research or location hunt. Otherwise, I feel like what I would produce would be a fictional adaptation instead. If I draw from actual things I feel like I am drawing a side of reality.

In terms of getting inspired by other artistic genres and forms, if I don’t have enough inspiration, here in New York I went to see a musical. I do enjoy going to the theater. I feel that live action and anime are too close to what I already do. I try to seek further outward from an artistic standpoint.

The Beat: It’s been eight years since Macross Delta aired on Japanese television. Now it’s finally on its way to Disney+ supposedly in 2024. Do you have any words for Macross fans about to encounter the series for the first time? What should they keep an eye out for?

Shoji Kawamori: One thing I’d like viewers and fans to focus on is that I wrote and created Macross Delta with the theme or concept… The Delta troop is a team, their nemeses are a team. Even the Valkyries are a team. I wanted to show the interrelationships and individual characters and even mecha collaborating with each other.

Manga Mavericks: How did you split the responsibilities of directing Macross Plus with your co-director Shinichiro Watanabe? What inspired you to recruit him to be your co-director? What was your working relationship like?

Shoji Kawamori: As a member of the original creative team on Macross, I handled the story and concept development. For the everyday scenes and interludes, I had director Watanabe handle them. For some of the key, or more flashy climax scenes, like the battle between Isamu and Guld, or Sharon’s scenes, I handled them.

Because I was working on Macross Plus and [Macross 7] simultaneously, in terms of the day-to-day interactions with the animators at the studio, those were all handled by director Watanabe. I handled the dubbing, the voice overs, the voice recording, and the final editing.

Anime Herald: We went from TV and VHS to modern streaming where you can watch anywhere. How has the industry changed from your perspective because of this?

Shoji Kawamori: Wow, that’s a challenging question. I think it’s a great positive that you can watch so much more content, from anywhere around the world.

Conversely, I feel that’s led to maybe an overall drop in the concentration or focus in terms of getting into a single entire series in depth. In particular, I feel like fans or general viewers these days focus on bits and pieces, or compartmentalize or divide an anime series or film into little parts. They just like the mecha of this work, or this idol, or moe, instead of enjoying all of the diversity that exists.

Anime Corner: Macross pioneered the idea of having virtual idols represent people. Did Sharon Apple set the precedent for VTubers?

Shoji Kawamori: (Laughs) I don’t know if Sharon and some of the other virtual idol characters I created directly influenced the development or the rise of VTubers. I do notice that they do very similar things. The one thing I can say with certainty is that back when I created Macross Plus, 25 years ago or more, a lot of the people around me, my colleagues and staff said, “Oh, no way. This is never gonna happen!” The fact that it now exists, it became reality a lot quicker than I anticipated.

All Ages of Geek: Most of your work covers very big themes like love, war, spirituality, and ecology. Was that important to you? How to tackle those themes in the projects you work on?

Shoji Kawamori: I don’t know if this is something I deliberately made my creations around. I’m the kind of person who feels like I have to look inside for the elements I want to expound on. What am I interested in? What is intriguing me? What am I curious about? These themes that you pointed out are things that I personally want to know more about. That’s why they come out in the works that I create.

Because of episode length and number of episodes, and target audience of the client, sometimes I’ve been given the critique “can you cut a little bit of this?” In that way, I’ve had to create a balance.

ESR Gaming Network: Do you play the video games that the mecha you’ve worked on have appeared in? If so, what is your favorite to play?

Shoji Kawamori: I have so much work on my schedule, I don’t have a lot of time to play games. Not even the ones I’ve worked on. It’s my personality to want to experience simulators rather than play video games. Don’t get me wrong, I love working on games. I love creating for games. I just don’t play games per se.

The Beat: Some of my favorite works of yours were made in collaboration with scriptwriter Mari Okada. Stuff like Aquarion Evol and AKB0048. How did you first meet, and is it possible that you might collaborate again with her one day in the future?

Shoji Kawamori: I believe someone introduced me to her when I was collecting the staff for Aquarian Evol. I had watched some of the things she had worked on. I was immediately struck by what good sense she had. Especially in terms of depicting character emotions. The way she depicts characters is brilliant and unique. That’s why I wanted to work with her.

In terms of us working together in the future, she is also very busy. Certainly, if there were a time we were both available, I would love to collaborate with her again. There’s just nothing currently in the works. If we were to ever work together again, I would say it was something out of left field unique.

Manga Mavericks: How did you work with Yoko Kanno to develop the music for Macross Plus? What went into creating Sharon’s songs in numerous languages?

Shoji Kawamori: I’m very honored and happy to have been able to work with Yoko Kanno so many times. Each and every time, I’m so inspired by her music, especially in terms of her versatility. That she caters and fits the music to each piece. They are so varied and diverse.

In terms of Sharon, among all the virtual idols we had created, I realized that the same idol could keep changing appearances. It would be the same idol, but we could do different character designs. Each time the idol changed, we could go in a different direction in terms of genre or style.

Without placing any good or bad judgment on it, or any judgment at all, her music causes a kind of mind control. It isn’t the creepy underlying part. The songs are so beautiful, they end up controlling your psyche.

In terms of Macross Plus at the time, what interested me was the individual freedom of will, and social mind control. These are topics that still intrigue me. That’s why they became a sub theme of Macross Plus.

I feel that, in terms of my actual day-to-day work with Yoko Kanno on those specific series, it would probably be easiest to relay an example from the Aquarion series. I feel like her music is unique and different from other composers. Most of the time, I would describe the worldview of the new project, and then the different characters that would be in that work. Most people would say “Okay,” but she would always ask “and then?”

She would never be satisfied with the regular descriptions that I would come up with. I realized she’s not the kind of person who draws inspiration from regular descriptions. Even when it came to the overarching themes of the series she would always be like “that’s good, but what else?” She would always want more details to draw from.

In terms of a specific experience within Aquarion, there’s the enemy boss character. He has to go back 12,000 years to retrieve a love letter that he had somehow misplaced. Once I got to that part, she reacted, “Ah! That’s it!”

In terms of Macross Frontier, I explained it was an academy set in space. Once you are separated, you might never see each other ever again. That seemed to satisfy her.

Anime Herald: 45 years later, do you still remember love?

Shoji Kawamori: I think I am still seeking love. That is a very challenging question. (Laughs)

ESR Gaming Network: What advice do you have for aspiring artists and designers?

Shoji Kawamori: First and foremost, please come and ask me how to properly develop world concepts.

Also, whatever genre the creator wants to go into, they need to explore exactly what they want to do. Whether they want to work on original concepts or series, or work on adaptations. The advice would differ depending on which they want to do. And it doesn’t have to be all of one or the other. They can do mostly adaptations or vice versa. They need to have a clear vision of what they want to do.

The Beat: The world’s continued to change since Earth Maiden Arjuna was released in 2001. Do you think that people have come any closer to understanding each other since then?

Shoji Kawamori: At the time I created Arjuna and it aired, there was a small percentage of people who thought similarly, but most people thought “that kind of thing would never occur.” And yet, here we are. It feels like we’ve been progressing towards what we see in the film.

In terms of people understanding each other, I think people are seeking to communicate better and understand each other more. I certainly think the desire is there. But I feel like perhaps we’ve taken a step back because we rely on devices too much instead of face to face.

I’ve made this a theme of my exhibit that will be part of next year’s Expo Osaka 2025. I feel that there’s much more interest in human to human communication. Communication might not be the right word, but in terms of our relationship with other species, we aren’t exploring it as much. Of course, there are a select few that are seeking better communication with animals, but I feel overall our relationship with other animals may have taken a step back.

Manga Mavericks: What are your thoughts on AI media? Have they changed over the years since Macross Plus came out? What questions did you seek to ask through Macross Plus and Last Hope?

Shoji Kawamori: At the time I developed Macross Plus, I never thought AI would develop this much, this fast. Even back then it was postulated AI would replace humans on simple tasks and labor. But in terms of AI entering creative fields, I never thought it would develop, and certainly not this quickly.

But conversely, I feel that the recent evolution of AI has led to important questions that I even ask myself. What is the difference between AI and human? What is life, as opposed to AI? The kind of questions AI gives are becoming more human-like, but they lack a kind of emotion. I think it will take some time for AI to develop to that point.

What interests me is the amount of data necessary for AI to progress to the level not just of humanity, but also other living beings.

Anime Herald: Can you talk about your recent collaborations with Sunrise?

Shoji Kawamori: I’ve been involved with various works and projects with Sunrise since the early part of my career. There’s Escaflowne, Cyber Formula, and most recently, Macross. In some ways, I feel that I owe a lot to Sunrise. It’s almost like home, or a home base, but it’s not home base. That kind of slight paradox influences and inspires me a lot.

Another thing I think highly about Sunrise, is that even though they do a lot of adaptations, they also create a lot of original anime as well. I think that’s good. That’s something I think highly of them for.