Reading the Trump Indictments
Added 2023-09-19 16:37:53 +0000 UTCFormer president Donald Trump is currently facing 91 criminal charges in four different jurisdictions — Georgia, Florida, New York, and the District of Columbia. Two of these indictments — Special Prosecutor Jack Smith's in D.C. and District Attorney Fani Willis's Fulton County, Georgia — take up Trump's and his co-conspirators efforts to steal the 2020 election, efforts that culminated with the insurrection on January 6. In this episode, Matt and Sam try to make sense of them and weigh the possible risks and rewards of "breaking the seal" and criminally charging a former president. In particular, they give closes readings to the two January 6-related indictments and discuss what they reveal about the deranged efforts Trump and his team made to overturn the election and a Republican Party that seemed to mostly go along with it, along with some of the problems with the RICO statute Trump and others are being charged under in Georgia. And of course, these indictments came down just as we're entering presidential election season — how will Trump's legal problems effect the 2024 race?
Sources:
Charlie Savage and Adam Goldman, "The Trump Jan. 6 Indictment, Annotated," NYT, Aug 1, 2023
Alan Feuer, et al, "The Trump Georgia Indictment, Annotated," NYT, Aug 15, 2023
Charlie Savage, "The Four Trump Criminal Cases: Strengths and Weaknesses," NYT, Aug 28, 2023
James Risen, "In Trump’s Georgia Indictment, a Tale of Two Election Workers," The Intercept, Aug 17, 2023
Rick Rojas and Sean Keenan, "Dozens of ‘Cop City’ Activists Are Indicted on Racketeering Charges," NYT, Sept 5, 2023
Laurence Tribe, "Anatomy of a Fraud," Just Security, Aug 8, 2023
Matthew Sitman, "Will Be Wild," Dissent, Spring 2023
Damon Linker, "How Do You Solve a Problem Like Trump?" Notes from the Middleground, July 18, 2022
Comments
I would have liked to hear more of you guys parsing the right's reaction to the Trump indictments. You did a tiny bit, but maybe right wing thinkers just aren't saying too much about this situation?
Gary Manners
2023-09-21 15:32:34 +0000 UTCHappy Birthday, Matt!
Benjamin Pletcher
2023-09-21 03:57:53 +0000 UTCI thought this was a lazy episode without much insight to offer. Why not dig in to the "breaking the seal" question, see how it's worked out for other democracies, ask whether the steps Dems took to depoliticize these prosecutions were appropriate and sufficient? And yes, RICO statutes are used to bully small-time gang members, but *should* that make us uncomfortable about using them to hold Trump and his minions to account? How should Democrats in the political arena respond to these prosecutions? What is the point of a consequentialist analysis when Republicans already flout laws and norms routinely? If the media have that part wrong, what else do they misunderstand about this conjuncture? Is the government now using the same counterinsurgency techniques against the Right that it's been using for decades against the Left? How do we feel about that, practically and morally? This topic is so rich, it was disappointing to hear an episode that offered basically nothing you wouldn't encounter in the NYTimes opinion page.
Ben Rosengart
2023-09-21 02:07:06 +0000 UTCYes. When President Ford pardoned former President Nixon before he could be indicted or put on trial, a very harmful precedent was established--and now a lot of people consider it unthinkable to indict the person most responsible for some very serious crimes against the United States. Trump's belief that he's above the law can be explained in terms of his pathological mindset, but the millions of people whom he has convinced to follow him are surely being influenced by the consistent excusal of higher-ups in our past. In this sense, it's a false dichotomy to say that the best solution is political "rather than" judicial; rather, the fear of taking needed judicial action has a huge political effect, which is to make Trump's monarchist intentions plausible to many American voters who should know better. They will at least have to think a little bit if he is convicted of one or more felonies.
David in Brooklyn
2023-09-20 20:01:39 +0000 UTCHappy Birthday, Matt!
Rebecca Bush
2023-09-20 16:43:33 +0000 UTCOMG of course Matt is a Virgo - happy birthday king! 👑👑👑
Jenna Harmon
2023-09-20 15:59:52 +0000 UTCThis is so helpful. I've been watching Beau of the Fifth Column YouTube videos about all this and it's very granular and day-to-day. This really helps me have a better perspective
Dan Anderson
2023-09-20 14:05:33 +0000 UTC^yes! for those in the right city at the right time this tour would be a good point of entry https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1suFRqm_-ugcnuDUItjgnaAzAyxBtwWs&ll=40.0720878491574%2C-97.3382361&z=5
Pj
2023-09-20 04:05:19 +0000 UTCYou know about the Stop Cop City forest defenders! For real — everyone should dig into what’s been going on with that.
Joanna Wilson
2023-09-20 02:57:53 +0000 UTCOh, thanks for the response! I think I was reacting to a comment from Sam about it seeming like an opening statement rather than a charging doc. but I totally agree that the DC complaint is very well drafted. crim law doesn’t normally feature pleadings with good prose and flow.
Evan Nordgren
2023-09-20 00:47:28 +0000 UTCOh, I didn't think it was odd that the DC charging documents were in that form, but mentioned what a compelling (even elegant) narrative it provided in case listeners wanted to actually read it. The context and added information you provide is helpful, thank you! (Matt)
Know Your Enemy
2023-09-19 21:27:16 +0000 UTCWhen it comes to "breaking the seal": other democracies do it all the time, and you can argue that NOT being able to do it is what is pathological for a republic. https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/episodes/on-the-media-lock-him-up
Rick Perlstein
2023-09-19 21:21:42 +0000 UTC(Read Ellsberh's SECRETS snd THE DOOMSDAY MACHINE.)
Rick Perlstein
2023-09-19 21:15:47 +0000 UTC...the dangers of RICO is that (1) the classification system is one of the most ugly parts of the national security state, and here we are cheering on a prosecution under it; and (2) the reason the particular secrets in question are so important to keep secret is that they uphold a system of nuclear blackmail that let's the U.S. do whatever ot wants around the world, but here we are cheering to too.
Rick Perlstein
2023-09-19 21:14:58 +0000 UTCAnother annoyance of these cases I thought of as you explained tge
Rick Perlstein
2023-09-19 21:10:31 +0000 UTCGood episode. Just so you know, the DC indictment isn’t too odd in form as far as charging documents go. Narrative-style complaints/informations are common enough. Even in “we copied and pasted the officer’s report under the statutes we are charging” complaints, prosecutors frequently editorialize. Complex cases, particularly those pursued by the feds, frequently feature narrative sections that preview the story the state intends to present through witnesses at trial. It’s useful for setting the boundaries of dispositive motion practice. See the Skilling and Garipoli indictments for other examples of the form. Also, you really, really don’t need to hear what Dershowitz has to say on this! Unsurprised that Sam listened… but Dersh apparently forgotten how inferences work when it comes to mens rea.
Evan Nordgren
2023-09-19 18:27:14 +0000 UTCI do think the question of “what becomes of the country if this man is elected” needs to go further; I don’t really see what the answer to the whole GOP is! Short of a truth and reconciliation committee or civil war 2.0 the GOP will keep doing this. I’m not sure the rank and file army (and certainly not the cops) would back the right side and also the Dems refuse to promise a world worth fighting for as much as the world the GOP is promising is worth fighting against. Like even if Trump loses and goes to jail - the GOP does not look like it is capable of learning. DeSantis would do all the things Trump wants and more. Ramaswamy seems up for it. They have laid the groundwork for them - they just need to win one election.
Matthew Maddock
2023-09-19 18:20:37 +0000 UTC
