Joe's Gotta Go

Little follow-up to comment above, just to say that I did eventually check in with Vexler on some (not all) post-debate opining about Biden. He seems to be saying that he doesn’t think Harris can win. He suggests though that possibly ‘it hurts democracy less’ if Biden drops out and Harris loses than if Biden stays in and loses. Big problems with Vexler’s ideas about what democracy is notwithstanding, I appreciate that he’s making this point.

Paul Bowman

This is the chapo crossover EP that only ever existed in my dreams.

Logan

Had to give this a re-listen in light of all the dem capitulation to Biden's so called nomination. I needed to be reminded I'm not crazy.

Lol

The teaser was so cathartic to hear, I finally became a patron.

Stan Polson

I’m so angry too!

Emily Francomano

Not sure if this has come up yet, but to me the sad-funniest part of the spirited golf exchange is that Trump seems to actually catch Joe lying about his handicap?!

Justin

Joe and his party are genocidal as America is genocidal. America supports the current genocide in Palestine as it clings to genocides past. I don’t know what’s costing the Democrats the most, but I do know we’re going to get a genocidal president in November.

Paul Bowman

I think it's relevant to mention, especially when discussing how his approval ratings slipped after Afghanistan withdrawal. And also when it was discussed during the debate and "Palestinian" was used as a slur. It is extremely relevant to many voters, but yes, as the Dems all support Israel, any highlighting of Genocide Joe's support does highlight the entire party's backing of an ethnic cleansing campaign. But if we're talking about losing voters, this is the top issue rn.

Virginia Bee

However true it may be of Biden and party, is this a question that comes into understanding effects of the debate? In my own judgment, ‘support for’ Zionism is integral in U.S. government at the top. Israel is our project. (Not ours only, but ours.) Someone with a real shot at the White House not taking backing Israel all the way as given would be something you couldn’t leave out of discussion at any campaign-trail step. That’s a top race in a possible future U.S., though, not in the present one. War on Gaza is costing the party something, of course. It’s cost any leadership the party has in our moment is going to bear.

Paul Bowman

Confused why his support of Zionism wasn't mentioned as another reason for his losing HUGE amounts of supporters. He lost hundreds of thousands of primary votes because of it

Virginia Bee

Just listened to the podcast. Cant agree more. For Biden not to step down reminds me of the other narcissistic, cloistered, delusional candidate….. If he remains in the race and loses - he will ONLY be remembered for the guy who couldn’t beat a corrupt and convicted half-wit. No one will care about his record. Also, one thing you didn’t mention is also that for Biden to stay in the race will only alienate more younger independent voters who already think the Dems are full of old folks who are out of touch. Not a good trend going forward.

Sierra

That's a gracious reply, thanks. Just didn't want anyone thinking we didn't care about those extremely important other topics. Stay tuned for more, we're debating the best way to handle SCOTUS, but we will handle it. (Matt)

Know Your Enemy

Apologies for not looking into the timeline more closely. I should have known you would have us covered. :)

Seth Harrison

This is a really unfortunate comment! For one thing, we both recorded *and* posted this before the decision overturning Chevron came down, and we're currently planning an episode on that and other SCOTUS decisions this term. In addition, we've already done an episode on Project 2025, which is available to everyone, free, in front of the paywall. (Matt)

Know Your Enemy

Usually a big KYE fan—but I have to question whether listeners would have been better served by a pod about overturning Chevron or Project 2025.

Seth Harrison

this sounds very right

Heraclitean

I hope I'm not repeating what someone already said, I only read half the comments. Anyway, on the level of realpolitik, aren't Harris's numbers about the same as Biden's? That datapoint would suggest that it should be someone other than Harris. And yet, there are all sorts of other reasons why, if Joe did step aside, it should be Harris (not least of which she's part of his campaign in the most intimate way, and also she's a black woman and sitting vice president). I feel like this basic issue hasn't really been well addressed that I have heard.

Heraclitean

It's just a thought

Chris Boglioli

I get that. And I do think he should have stepped down. I guess I'm wondering regarding the point of critism you mentioned on the pod that there ate Bernie supporters who always going to be against Biden. I guess I just was curious what the response would be if Bernie did declare. I realize this is a hypothetical. I'm not getting mad at anyone I just think that it would seem intuitive to may less engaged votes to wonder why one old do would be better than another. I guess the part I left out was that i would like the left to actually put forth support for a younger candidate and not just simply say that we were right.

Chris Boglioli

Why make up someone to get mad in this hypothetical? Bernie's not running, Biden is, and his debate performance was absolutely catastrophic—I have no idea what any of this has to do with Bernie, who, again, is not running for president. Just one more time: Bernie is not running for president, and Joe Biden is. (Matt)

Know Your Enemy

Biden talking about his golf handicap really did make me think he was the oldest generation of the Mandelbaum family.

Jonah Salehi

I don't disagree, I just wonder if at least some Bernie supports would defend him In a similar situation. Also if voters have been concerned with bidens age you can't then say hey this other 82 year old is a better alternative. I also think it would negate any establishment types claims to bias

Chris Boglioli

"Biden is too old" is shorthand for "Biden's mental capabilities are too deminished". Bernie still sounds the same and is still vigirous when giving speeches. I don't think they are comparable in mental acuity.

Marshall Crenshaw

I agree that Biden is too old and I can understand the anger at those how dismissed the age concerns. But I do wonder if those same people would say the same of Bernie, they are the same age. I think that if we say Biden is too old the same must be said for Bernie

Chris Boglioli

Two hundred years from now, when I've awoken from my cryogenic slumber and get to write the Decline and Fall of the American Empire, it's going to be hard to find a better narrative frame for that fall than the clip of George W. Bush's call upon all nations to "stop these terrorist killings...now watch this drive" leading into Trump and Biden's bizarre repartee about their golf games.

Caleb Kuddes

If Biden/Harris are the only options to defeat fascism electorally, we need to admit at this point that all the evidence points to fascism winning in November under those constraints. If people take this threat of fascism seriously, there ought to be considerable thought and public conversation about how Biden/Harris could use the presidency's new immunity powers to prevent Trump from taking office. This could range from delivering for voters (ex: student loans), procedural attacks on the election, to more extreme options. If the threat is so great, as many here seem to believe, then this has to be thoroughly considered. Vote harder is not a real response for people that believe fascism is coming.

Mark Harper

Having only seen clips of the debate, I thought originally that you were talking about a ‘Gulf’ rather than ‘Golf’ moment surrounding foreign policy before I eventually cottoned on… expectations v. reality moment.

Isaac Leaver

I've finally heard clips of Biden's debate performance and my gallows humor recommendation is that someone needs to get Biden Stephen Hawking's voice machine. Which is like the best case scenario, apparently!

Taylor

I just cannot phonebank or door knock for a president who enacted a draconian right wing border policy and is presiding over what's happening in Gaza. I can maybe vote for one but good god the shame would be way too great to actually campaign for him

Jake Lloyd

Can you guys talk about Biden doing the draconian border policy? I made fun of my friends for writing in candidates in 2016 and 2020 general instead of voting blue. I always justified my vote with the usual harm mitigation arguments, but after Biden straight up doing republican border policy, that’s not mitigating anything, it’s only exacerbating it. Biden moved the overton window on the border so now the standard is “draconian shutdown”. This is extremely harmful and almost more than him overseeing the genocide in gaza is making me feel like I can’t vote for president (still voting down ballot no matter what ofc). I just feel so paralyzed. Really wish you guys would talk about the border and sorry if you have and I missed it (Catching up on my backlog, had to jump the line to hear this ep first)

Jake Lloyd

Thank you for this

mark o'hare

2016 was like a family member dying suddenly in a car crash. the debate was like receiving a family member’s cancer diagnosis and realizing that they are going to die slowly over the next 4 months. I’ve been about as depressed as I was then and the same 2 words reverberate in my mind, “WE’RE FUCKED!”

Ryeman

Thank you, great exorcism. On another podcast transversing the same grim subject, a long-suffering Capitol Hill journalist mentioned that his most salient explanation for the early calendar date for the debate was that people inside Biden’s party felt constrained by Biden’s stubbornness and wanted to get the word out about his unfitness in time for an 11th-hour pivot to a different candidate. It’s irresponsible speculation, but I still found it to be a useful thought experiment in the sense that it underscores the presence of opportunity currently within the unfolding of events. The debate leaves no doubt that Biden’s unfitness was always going to be exposed at some point along the campaign, and at least it’s happened at a moment where there is still a chance, however uncertain, to choose another candidate. Many democratic countries have election campaigns only a couple of months long — there is no reason why a well-prepared candidate could not step in, have themselves vetted inside and out by the media, and make a case. Whom do you sense would have the best chance? My sense: a solid Democrat candidate who has repeatedly won elections in a red state, full of youthful energy, high technological/internet competence, and whose forward thinking suggests being of the future while selectively honoring the past and vigorously denouncing the present. Now your turn! Gavin

Gavin Pherson

The attachment to Biden runs deeper in some quarters than you'd think. I have older female colleagues who seemingly transferred much of their wounded identification with Hilary Clinton onto Biden as soon as the party decided that he was the Un-Bernie back in 2020. When they see men on X criticizing Biden for being senile or a bad debater, they experience Bernie Bros. mansplaining Hilary's corporate foibles to them. At least one colleague called the critiques of Biden sexist because they ignore the clear gaslighting from Trump which you are most clued into if you are a woman and have to put up with it every day. (See also the readings of Sanders slouching at Biden's inaugural as racist or sexist.) The ghosts of 2016 still haunt a lot of this Democratic Party mishegoss.

Sebastian Lecourt

Listening to this was so cathartic. I’ve become in favor of replacing Biden since the debate and to be honest I’m coming out of denial a little bit by doing so. It’s unacceptable to take this risk in the face of how disastrous a second trump admin would be.

Allen Bitzer

I just rewatched the west wing and it's so crazy how that show predicted something like this with Bartlet's MS. I do wish we could have a more honest discussion about age and health in politics, because this is just absurd. Also, would y'all ever do an episode about the West Wing >.>

David Ivan

Knocking on doors for a candidate who cannot win is such a forced march image of futility and despair. The productive action we can take is now, demanding an open convention to choose among the many qualified possibilities.

Carpenters Gothic

It’s a gamble yes. But Biden losing is as close to a sure thing as exists in politics. We need to stop cowering, take action and live with the consequences. Doing nothing and expecting a victory behind an obviously incapacitated candidate is lunacy.

Carpenters Gothic

Not fully disagreeing with you Marshall, since I'm sure everyone there wants to keep their job. However, I have a cousin who worked in the state department in the 90s and worked with Biden when he was senator. He always recalled him as being sincere and warm, that the image of him as a devoted family man was 100% correct. (Reflecting on the observation of sincerity actually made me feel worse about Biden re: Gaza because he has a long and vocal pro-Israeli record, and because it also helps explain how easily Netanyahu played him.) So I think there probably is some genuine affection for him in his inner circle, though I'm sure they know better than the rest of us how poorly functioning he is and may also have genuine concern for him staying on.

DC

I used to have to regularly deal with a verbally abusive older conservative on the phone (public service) who would regularly pronounce Kamala as Commula like a portmanteau of Communist and Dracula. Never clear to me if she meant to do that because she said all sorts of shit in odd ways.

DC

Just remember: a 77 year old car (same one that's 81 today) won SEVEN MILLION more votes than his opponent in 2020 ... We can talk ourselves into defeat, if we want, but a 50-year-old, open convention process seems like quite a gamble

James Nebraska

Per Open Secrets: "While Trump raised less money than his Democratic rival, Hillary Clinton, he received free media attention valued at about $5 billion." https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/candidate?id=n00023864

James Nebraska

And if that car were 81, sputtering, wheezing, coughing, hemorrhaging fluids, i know id go with the 50 year old option. Our only option is the one not guaranteed to lose.

Carpenters Gothic

You mention Access Hollywood … remember how shambolic and underfunded Trumps 2016 campaign was, with lackluster at best buy in from the RNC. Given that “generic democrat” easily beats Trump in every poll, it’s not hard to imagine that someone who could self-fund like Pritzker could slide in seamlessly enough to beat Trump in 24 just like Trump beat Clinton in 16.

Nick

Where indeed. What we've learned is the sad state of disrepair in the Democratic Party's institutional structures — except, sadly, fundraising.

Henry Bachofer

I also noted that Trump was restrained but it may be because he was also surprised at how diminished Biden is and thus held back. He was even almost nice around one point.

Philippe Duhart

SC has now opened the door to a ceasarist presidency. So much despair among Dems. “Gee i wish Biden would step down, but we have no say in the matter.” I know this isn’t your bailiwick but where’s our Bannon-esque war-room?

Carpenters Gothic

THANK YOU

Karen Cox

Fifty years is a long time ... If I found an old car that had been sitting in a shed for 50 years, untested and undriven, I'm not sure I'd be confident that it would be road-worthy

James Nebraska

Counterpoint: this is how every election until 1972 was done.

Leo Ferguson

It at least makes them think about him instead of attack our guy.

Karen Cox

Having already taken one bite at the apple, I thought I'd try again once more, with the updated news of the day. Politico reported this morning that Whitmer has no interest in replacing Biden; I suspect that's true of all the A-team, though some have speculated that they (?) would all "jump" at the opportunity if Biden were to withdraw. But I continue to believe that it's not nearly as easy as all that. If Biden resigned––he won't––then, at least on paper, Harris would be the leading contender, but definitely not the presumptive nominee. Biden could "release" his delegates, but they'd be free agents; he couldn't "order" them to vote for anyone, including Harris. Now, it's possible the DNC and party elders and whoever would all coalesce around Harris; if so, no problem. But if not, then big problems. And as others have noted, there would be all sorts of difficulties "passing up" Kamala Harris as the nominee if Biden were to withdraw or resign. But the more salient point is: there would be all sorts of difficulties with any change in the ticket. No one––NO ONE––has the infrastructure, institutional support, fundraising, experience, game on the ground––or time, at this point––to seamlessly step in. And, no, none of the above is or would be unsolvable...given enough time. Had Biden not run in the first place, had he withdrawn six months ago, whatever more likely scenario one might play out ... then, yes, there may have been enough time. But that ship has sailed. So, it's not (imho) that Biden "couldn't" withdraw and "some kind of process" play out for a substitute ticket, whether headed by Harris or someone else. Of course, that *could* happen. But is it more desirable than what we have now? Biden is old; Trump is both old and crazy, but more "with it" consistently. (Assuming one defines "with it" as mostly complete sentences, if not thoughts.) Those calling for Biden's withdrawal greatly underestimate, I think, what would happen next. Everyone has "an idea" of what "might work." But that seems quite a gamble. Remember: one month before the 2016 election, the "Access Hollywood" audio came out, with Trump's infamous "locker room talk." At that point, Reince Priebus (and all of the GOP muckity-mucks) told Trump (TOLD him) that he had to withdraw or be prepared to suffer the worst defeat in electoral history. We know how that ended. We have FOUR months until the election. If Biden can perform as he did the following day in NC, if the party will stop all of this unnecessary and unhelpful internal warfare, if people will just calm the f'k down, this is survivable, and more so than "the gamble" of a new ticket, however that might come about. Trump is Trump; that has to be the silver lining in all of this. The substance of his "debate" was atrocious; that is what we should be focusing on. Democrats are notoriously difficult about these things, bedwetting at both large and small events. Rs power through, no matter what. Our side could learn something from that. Biden is imperfect, flawed, old, whatever. Trump is off-the-charts worse. If some wavering voter says, I might have voted for Biden; I like the policies he stands for, but he's so old, so I'm leaning towards Trump," then there is no hope, no matter what.

James Nebraska

Sam, I thought Trump showed intelligence with his restraint. But I bailed after 45min.

David Gillman

Thanks guys, it's cathartic to hear from the handful of commentators who are willing to speak plainly about the obvious catastrophe of keeping a man in Biden's state in office. Ganz had a tweet about how this is a constitutional crisis in an almost Roman sense and I think that's spot on. Meanwhile almost every Democratic partisan is falling back in line. They're doing this two-step where they say that yes, maybe Biden's communication skills have declined, but behind that he is still the same man he always was, and he's the right man for the job. Just insulting our intelligence at this point. They spent months telling us that his rumored decline was a mirage from selectively edited clips. Now that the debate proved that wrong, we're supposed to accept that his speaking skills fell off a cliff over the past 4 years while somehow the rest of his presidential competencies remain undiminished. The same people who lamented the death of civic norms and wailed that Trump's mental state warranted the use of the 25th Amendment are not willing to risk a single ounce of access or self-advancement to say what everyone can already see: Biden does not belong in the Oval Office and is sleepwalking us all into a second Trump administration.

Matthew

I voted green last time. I certainly won't be voting for Biden this time, given his monstrous performance regarding Palestine and his obvious cognitive decline.

Laura

The question isn't whether Biden should withdraw from the race. The question is how to prevent Trump from winning the election. I don't see a path to that result with Biden on the ticket. (And I'm not sure what the path would be without him on the ticket.) But instead of Jim Clyburn (age 84) and Nancy Pelosi (age 84) telling us Joe is "our only hope" I want to hear from the party leadership what the plan is — and faith, hope and charity are not a plan. Five minutes into the debate I wanted to know who was in charge of debate prep. Instead of hammering on the five key criticisms of Trump, the preppers seemed to have decided on stuffing Joe's head with facts and figures ... as if it was a mini-mental state exam that Joe obviously couldn't pass given that he confused Medicare and COVID ("we beat Medicare").

Henry Bachofer

It is.

Paul Bowman

After the weekend, where we've seen that Biden is not planning to step aside--Sam, will you knock on doors for him? It is so depressing.

H K

My suspicion is that, at least within Biden's camp, there were threats made to other party leadership regarding any attempt to hold a normal primary. Maybe they said shit like Biden would withhold his support, or even run third party. In no small part is this powered by Biden's obsessive desire to be president.

Leonardo Restrepo

and "the magnificent" RBG

seaward

My question: who do we blame for the democrats not holding a primary? There wasn’t anyone serious challenging him…sorry, take that back. Dean Phillips. But other than that I can only imagine the front bench would not want to go against an incumbent.

Kenichi Serino

If we are going to "Know Our Enemy" then we have to realize our enemies include the rich people who cancelled our primary and who took democracy out of our Democratic party. KYE should analyze the history of the authoritarian leanings of our party bosses and what to do about it. We need a plan for how to fix this for the next cycle.

seaward

Also Sam really needs to say "KAM-ala" instead of "ka-MAL-a" so it doesn't sound like he is delivering a GOP micro-aggression similar to saying "Democrat party".

seaward

Funny Matt bailed on the last ten minutes. I did too after the golf exchange. I had seen enough.

seaward

My high-liberalism YouTube comfort blankie of usual choice, Vlad Vexler, will often work in something about Biden’s ‘cognitive decline’ when talking about what he sees as world’s democracies under long-developing process of trust collapse. Right after this debate hit, he put a couple of videos up in quick succession. I still haven’t listened to either and am not sure I will bother. But I didn’t put off listening to this from you. I think I do appreciate knowing where your temperature’s at on the subject. For my part, as an American, I guess I’m wishing for more out there about what an especially bad institution the U.S. presidency is in general. This moment seems good for that. (Good as any.)

Paul Bowman

The worst part of the debate is Trump use of Palestinian as a slur. I would also note that Biden’s performance, while catastrophic, is secondary to his adopting Trump policies, in several areas, as the main reason he should not be running.

Alejandro Santos

Great episode. Appreciate your perspectives and call to action. I’ve emailed and called the key Democratic leaders in my state - governor, US senators and congressional representatives - to let them know that leaving Biden on the ticket is not acceptable. How will democrats argue that they stand for the truth in the face of Trump’s lies if they go with Biden. Ludicrous! I know emails and calls are not enough, but I’m not sure what else to do. I will never vote for Trump, but I’m not against sitting this election out - or at least leaving the presidential choice blank on my ballot. Never thought I’d say that.

Trish

Do you think there’s a greater concern that if the Dems accept that Biden shouldn’t be the candidate another question would be asked; why hasn’t the 25th been used? He is POTUS right now and, with all that is happening with Gaza and politics at home, accepting he is unfit to run now would be to accept he is unfit to be in the WH right now.

Matthew Maddock

I didn't watch the debate and probably never will, though the overall picture seems clear. Ideally the public saw two unacceptable, disqualified candidates and would demand both parties kick them to the curb. A Whitmer vs. Desantis race would be more responsible and worthwhile.

Taylor

Also, my vote for the best moment of the debate was Trump's denial that he had sex with a pornstar, mainly because I got a good belly laugh out of that. It was a brief respite from what was otherwise a painful, migraine-inducing exchange.

Tom Ryan

Thanks for doing this, guys! Listening to your conversation was really cathartic.

Tom Ryan

I was also sick to my stomach after that debate. A note on fluency and coherency: I'm a translator and I know some interpreters that were doing real-time interpreting for this debate. They ended up having to swap more frequently when interpreting because it was so hard to process both presumptive candidates. The cognitive load was just intense. When it came to translating the transcript, it was Trump, as always, who was less coherent and more difficult to translate. Biden's performance was just so bad that Trump's incoherency didn't come across. And translating the abortion exchange was depressing as hell. Honestly, my translation looked like it might have been generated by a.i. or machine translated by Bing. It didn't look real. I'm depressed because I don't see a path forward and frankly, I'm scared. But on a lighter note, pour one out for all the interpreters, translators, and non-native level English speakers around the world. We need it.

Sophie

It’s unsettling and even a bit surprising that party elders (Obama, Clinton, etc.) are staking their credibility on Biden being able to win after what we saw on Thursday. Gaslighting is an overused word but in this case it really fits the behavior — the condescension towards their own voters is even obvious to my MSNBC resistance lib family and friends. I don’t think this is a situation that they can just lie their way through — if Biden doesn’t step down and loses as a result they lose any remaining shred of credibility.

Cavan Bonner

I'll add that my dad who's a bus driver and never votes and my mom who votes for Trump but isn't rabidly Maga both think Biden is trash.😅 like there isn't baseline respect- it's insulting that he's running and pretending he speaks for working ppl or something. And yes, I know he's passed good legislation during his first term.

Catherine Enright

Thanks for your honesty. I'm a young independent from a low- income background who hasn't voted for anyone in the last two elections (so basically the entire time I've been eligible). If the Democrats have the integrity to self reflect and change course, I might actually vote. That might show its not just all endless self interest masquerading as altruism. Biden now reminds me of Trump in 2016, when I saw conservatives around me (my background) pretending he was totally fine and normal when he was clearly nuts. Biden isn't nuts, but he's clearly not viable and I have no interest in voting for yet another ego project.

Catherine Enright

I was struck especially by the idea that Biden, were he thinking clearly, might have strode off the stage of history in 2024 a new Cincinnatus having faced down our brush with fascism and righted the ship of state.

Justin Van Wormer

Which people specifically?

Ben Harloe

Ohio and Alabama have already made noises about the D convention being too late to put a name on their ballots, and apparently Biden’s team did some paperwork to send it early. What if they refuse to change it for a new candidate?

Mark K

I want to say "the Venn diagram the skill set needed to govern and the skill set needed to campaign are almost entirely non-overlapping circles," which is a critique I've had of electoral politics. Buuuut... that overlap does exist, and he doesn't have it.

Keith Morse

When Sam said "I want people to vote for Biden, but I don't expect people to listen to me or take me seriously when I say it" (paraphrase) I thought that was literally the best pro Biden election take I've heard all year

dumbest girl alive

people who want trump to win don't listen to this podcast, no point in talking to an audience that isn't there

dumbest girl alive

I find myself thinking a lot about Diane Feinstein. She was clearly aging beyond her ability to do the job. And she was just a middle-of-the-road Democrat from California. It's not like she was desperately holding a seat in deep red country like Brown or Manchin. Her retirement would have only had positive results for the party. But she stayed. And stayed. And stayed. And then became a real liability when suddenly the Judiciary Committee was missing a deciding vote. Why? Because she genuinely didn't want to step aside. How? Because name recognition and incumbency advantage are 90% of electoral politics, and there's no mechanism to force a member to retire. Ultimately, we can complain about any "the Democrats" as an abstract collective, but this entire discourse is for an audience of one. The only person who could have prevented this crisis is also the only person who can end it now: Joe Biden himself.

Keith Morse

Convince Biden to bow out gracefully. Recruit Mitt Romney to switch parties and run as the Democratic nominee. For good measure, recruit Andy Beshear for VP. A deal with the devil? Maybe; but a viable alternative nonetheless. Sure, nobody really _likes_ Romney, but his experience as a campaigner and Washington insider is unrivaled given the current political landscape. I can think of no other candidate who could unite all the never Trumpers - and probably win.

Drew Panyko

What kills me is they’re currently framing stepping down as “giving up”. But in reality, the status quo is more complacent. Giving up is saying we should deny the obvious a second time, that we can’t do any better. He thinks his experience is helping him see, but it’s blinding him. Let go, Joe! On a lighter note, this khive podcast should be called “know your ene-bee”

Derek Hart

Excellent analysis.

jared brown

I don’t agree with Sam’s statement that part of the motive for Biden insiders to lie about his state is their own affection for the man. You have to remember we’re talking about the most morally bankrupt people this side of Donald Trump. They don’t give a shit about Biden other than as their own meal ticket. It’s solely about keeping their own jobs secure.

Marshall Steinbaum

I’d have better luck asking my cat to stay off the kitchen counter

Vincent

The president is a figure head and in the best case a leader. I am liberal so I prefer liberal leaders. The idea that Joe needs to be in a trench digging for the foundation of some future construction even if he were Pete Budeg... is a bit numb. Clearly the vast majority of his "decisions" are made by well informed professionals that use his leadership as guidance to form policy. I think the republican party is a few rich people manipulating dumb people. And that the democratic party is a few rich people manipulating people that think that they are smart and kind hearted. This push to remove Joe proves my suspicion because it's only the "pundit" class really pushing this idea. They want to be the vanguard. They want to say the smart eye catching thing. Most of all they want to believe that their party is different and stands for better, higher values. Unfortunately that is just mildly true. Not true enough to stop the Iraq war, not true enough to approach equality for all races, not true enough to protect a woman's right to anything, not true enough get real about climate..... You get my point. This whole chatter about Biden stepping down is democrats trying so settle the fact that their party actually sucks to. Also, Kamala Harris is a terrible candidate. Pick Kamala if you want to loose. Her tone is " i'll be down in a minute ". Never mind that; despite everyone quite sure it isn't true about themselves, America broadly speaking is both racist and misogynistic. Why has the republican party out witted the democrats? Probably because the democrats think that they are smart and believe their own bullshit. I say this in defense of Biden, he has been the right man for the past four years, he completely fumbled the debate. He fumbled gaza, Afghanistan.... Stand behind him and support him or at least present a viable replacement. I say this to help defend our democracy from the people behind Trump and of course Trump himself.

KELLAM R. CLARK

Why do we have to play by those unfair rules? They’re not fair!! Don’t play by them!

Karen Cox

This argument keeps coming up as if it would have sway over anyone of consequence on the Republican or undecided side. I think there needs to be acceptance that we are just playing with two different sets of rules for the candidates, despite it being unfair.

NBaa

(And by “they” I mean all Biden enablers, not just NYT)

Aaron Lee

I’m not a big Silver Head but I did listen to the “emergency episode” of his podcast, Risky Business. He discussed being more open about his own political affiliations since leaving NYT - and how, as you guys articulated, the fact that “they” lied to us for so long has put US in a humiliating situation. It’s worth a listen. (Your episode was great too!)

Aaron Lee

I've seen some of Silver's tweets, but if you don't mind elaborating what would you say is the thing we're specifically channeling here that you agree with? (Matt)

Know Your Enemy

You guys HAVE to make this episode public! This needs to be shared.

William Ryan Sheehan

It seems a better idea in general than most I've heard lately.

Adam Lewis

Perhaps we should all make an effort to set aside our status anxieties, tales of being called names and high school cafeteria seating arrangement memories for a week or two.

Adam Lewis

I expect politicians, and their courtiers, to lie to me, but when they lie to themselves, things get messy.

Adam Lewis

It should have been your very first thought. If Joe has to resign the woman he picked to succeed him takes over. That’s 3rd Grade Civics. It isn’t just the Right that suffers from misogyny.

Karen Cox

It’s amusing to me that the only people I’ve heard convey my specific anger around the debate are you guys and Nate Silver!

Aaron Lee

This whole thing weirdly reminds me of Wills’s Kennedy Imprisonment and the part about Chappaquiddick. Yes, Biden and his team lied to us. Yes, they gambled our collective futures on their ambitions. But under the crumbling logic of “resistance”, we are still expected to do everything for a man that so clearly doesn’t deserve it.

Blackford Oakes

By the end of the conversation I thought my comments were very much suggesting as much, and if we had recorded this today I’d have been more explicit about that. (Matt)

mjs

It’s the only option that’s not a guaranteed loss, at the very least.

Jon

It's pure delusion to claim that a candidate that can be incapacitated by over the counter medication is the best and only option to stop fascism in November. This is the exact type of reasoning that Matt and Sam (and myself) are so upset about.

Quinn Romanek

Also, the ONLY replacement is Kamala Harris. The ONLY OPTION. DEAL WITH THIS.

Karen Cox

When are you going to call on the convicted felon to leave the race? When are you going to excoriate Republicans for supporting the felon?

Karen Cox

Axel Herrera

AMEN!!!

Charles Zug

And we already have all the hot takes in the world about “vote blue no matter who” from people who clearly do not understand Dems are going to lose the election if they don’t replace Biden. Full stop. I’m sure our intrepid hosts take the same pleasure I do in saying “I told you so” (none) but this has been a losing strategy from the jump. Now, everything in America is worse. More war. More economic hardship. Housing crisis. Affordability crisis. I just can’t fucking believe Dems have forced this down America’s throat. I’ve never believed more in the end of the American empire than I do after watching that nightmare.

Rimbo Jackson

I think the importance of this topic means it ought to be listed on the main feed.

Propellane

Great episode- 100% agree. If you’ve been following the Gaza war- specifically the weird, seemingly self defeating tactic of “standing up for civilians” rhetorically while doing nothing to restrain Israeli atrocities (the purest distillation of this being the supposed “Rafah redline” and the supposedly “about to happen” hostage release deal)- it’s hard to see Biden as a forceful, honest or effective statesman. The only thing that made this dynamic worse (the clear pattern of Netanyahu humiliating Biden at every opportunity)- was seeing Biden actually speak on these issues. Biden repeated debunked misinformation about the October 7th attacks, he struggled to string together coherent sentences, and frankly seemed cadaverous. You could see from the body language of his aids, particularly Blinken (whose stress level measurably went up whenever Biden was speaking). You could see it in the questions and body language of reporters. Joe Biden looked cooked- plain and simple.

Isaac Suárez

I agree that the logic of withdrawing from the race means he should resign. Check out our show notes above—when we recorded the day after the debate I wasn't there yet, but I am now (I link to a tweet of mine). Thanks for commenting! — Matt

Know Your Enemy

Agree 100% that the debate was a clear loss for Biden ... though I think the loss was amplified excessively by the media (though we can't blame them––that's what they do!) and by the pundits. I mean, YES, Biden was way off his game: mumbling, losing train of thought, etc. Some explanations are now coming to light: that he had a cold and had taken medicine (like Benadryl) that tends to cause such reactions in older people. I don't know, of course, but having seen Biden at the SOTU and the day following the debate, in NC, he was 100% better. As we've all observed: this is NOT the Joe Biden we all knew in the Senate, or during Obama's presidency. Whether he's "worse" now than in 2020, I'm not sure, but he's clearly not better. And he will continue to get older, that we know for sure. Some are saying: Never mind the debate performance, they're concerned IF Biden wins and "continues to deteriorate." That doesn't worry me; too many people around to keep the trains running and decisions made w/o Biden's needing to be "public" all the time. Worse comes to worse, if he becomes entirely unable to continue (or die), there are processes in place to address that. AND: none of the above concerns me more than if Trump were elected and IN OFFICE for four more years. I personally don't think Biden will drop out, both for personal honor and the fact that he's "not as bad" as that one debate appearance. Moreover, four months out, this would be a seismic shock to the system, a gamble to end all gambles––a Hail Mary thrown directly into the sun, with no notion of where/whether/if it will land anywhere, let alone in the hands of the receiver, though we don't even know the possible receiver...could be anyone! I like lots of the other Ds, including Newsom, Shapiro, Whitmer, plus Buttigieg and Harris and whoever else might be a contender. They are all "fine." But none of them, in my opinion, would be able to do everything necessary in four months (assuming something happened NOW) to meet the challenge of a presidential election. And if this goes to an open convention, in late August, then Katy bar the door ... Ds will surely lose. On the tactical side, Rs are loving all of this––not just Joe's abysmal performance, but the "liberal media" turning on him, as well as "anonymous" sources in the party, among the donors, etc., who all want "something done." Not sure what, but "something." Biden beat Trump; Hillary did not, and she had an equal advantage *just before* the election: the Access Hollywood tape. And she still lost...mostly because of poor political choices made in the swing states. But she lost. She was "favored" to win 90 to 10 in the NYT's infamous thermometer. She lost. Ds are doing grave damage to the cause and to the possibility of victory in November by unhelpfully focusing so much time and energy (but not action) on what to do. Given that the debate was not a success, a more rational plan of action would be to redouble efforts towards winning, not wallowing in the moment. The race, I think, is still evenly split, with undecideds/persuadables/independents still largely up for grabs. If Biden didn't "win" them over, neither did Trump. The entirety of the debate focus has been on performance, not substance. In 2012, Obama had a terrible first debate––on both performance and substance, in that he thought it beneath him even to be on the stage with Mittens. He overcame that not by wallowing in the disaster that it was, but in pushing forward on a positive agenda. Though they won't, I think Ds would be much better served by acknowledging Joe was not up to par, but that what Trump was actually saying (what we can distill from his words) would be a disaster for the country and the world. Everyone should be hammering that message: Trump will wreak havoc and destroy prospects for peace and prosperity going forward. I'm still on Team Biden, both because he's the best and only option and because (realistically) we can't afford not to be ...

James Nebraska

You cannot ask for Biden to withdraw from the race and NOT insist he resign. If he's unfit to run, he's unfit to serve. I don't agree with the first assertion but if it is true then the second one is plainly also true.

Matt Robold

3 KYE episodes in a single week? Let's fucking go

vincent st-gelais

this is what the people were waiting for

Reed W