Angel 5x12 "You're Welcome" Full Reaction
Added 2022-02-17 23:18:21 +0000 UTC
Comments
Anyway, great reaction Liam! You're as sweet and fun to watch as ever. I paid just because I HAD to see this particular reaction.
Amanda
2022-03-13 13:43:57 +0000 UTCLol. Notice how they don't have answer for you? Never directly heard or seen any person involved with the show talk about these "meetings" to make sure she didn't get pregnant (never even saw people online, who think they know things add this part until now). I've heard that supposedly she was going to be the villain, but in a different way and her and Angel would have to fight. How her villain-y would be different than what we got seems to be told in a few different ways, so who knows. Greenwalt wasn't working on the show anymore and he said the main reason he had her go to the higher plane was just for the cool visual contrast of Angel sinking so...???whatever he came up with after was cutting it close. Though I doubt he would've minded her pregnancy if he was there...he reworked a season of Grimm to write for an actress's pregnancy and didn't punish her. But the fact remains that they could have shot action scenes before she started showing and used stunt doubles for the harder stuff. And then just shoot from the waist up the rest of the time and have her covered--like they did until the "Cordy" is pregnant reveal. (Supposed to be a reply to Judson, not sure it's showing up like that :| )
Amanda
2022-03-13 12:35:23 +0000 UTCFirst of all, this isn't about "not understanding the other side" (unless you mean yourself?) Nobody thinks a person can't be frustrated about having to change things, it's about how he reacted. I don't doubt that their relationship was complex and had good moments, most long work relationships do, but at this point, when she hasn't worked with him in long time, so feels safer, doesn't mean she can't call the stuff that was genuinely awful. Not just a little bad. Awful. Sure, we don't have to retroactively read things into every little thing he wrote or said ever, nor do I think he should never work again ever (he just shouldn't be the main person in charge anymore--at least not for a long while). But I don't get defending him on these particular things. How do you know about said meetings? She said she called them before the season started. Just think I'll point out that in TV production for a 22 episode season that airs weekly with breaks (and especially in the early 2000s), production is ongoing. They didn't write every script to start out with. Maybe they had an outline but you and all the other people that try to make this excuse (the only ppl I ever hear or see bring the "they had to rewrite everything"--and you're the only one I've ever heard bring up these meetings... pray tell did YOU work on the show?) seem to think that's how scripts are written and they're not. They certainly didn't have to reshoot anything, because again she has other people who have confirmed that she announced publicly at a con that she was pregnant and that was a few weeks before they started going back to work for pre-production, and shooting didn't tend to start until August. She's said she called them in July. Both Tim Minear and Steven DeKnight have said on Twitter that rumors (perpetuated by people online) that she "hid" her pregnant are "bullshit." I don't know if you're aware of this TV shows have actresses get pregnant all the time and they have ways of hiding it, specifically on dramas that use plenty of above the waist closeups. Like the did for the majority of the season until the pregnancy reveal...they could have just kept shooting her from the waist up and any "pre-planned" action scenes could have been shot before she was showing and they could have used a body double for some things. I hear conflicting things about what her involvement with the season was any ("she was always the villians and possessed for s4" or she was a "reverse Dark Willow" or she was going to "stay on the higher plane the whole time") Steven DeKnight also gave an interview talking about season 4 and he said, "We're still writing and figuring out the apocalypse thing (several episodes had aired already) and we came up with the idea recently that the main villain would be someone we hadn't seen yet...and Joss jumped in and said it should Cordelia..." Wow, sounds really well planned....and don't throw production stuff like costuming at me...TV costumers have to work quickly and weekly, that's their job and they're pros at it. So they could accommodate pregnancy (seen that excuse before). And finally, she you make it sound like for the last decade she's just said constantly that they made up. She said once ((1) over a decade ago when she was younger and trying to not make too many waves) she had talked with him and would be willing to work with him again, but then also explained in the same q&a how she had many problems with him when they worked together, even though she was diplomatic about. And it was consistent with other things she's said. I don't know how it is hard for you to understand that she felt like it would be easier to play nice because she didn't feel she was in a great position in her career to bad mouth (being dumped and finding out through the media and having a young child she needed to support) and she wanted to believe that things could be good with him. She literally said this in her statement, explaining that there's more to the story doesn't mean go back and only accept the part you wanted to hear. And her saying this didn't just start with Ray Fisher. She's brought up even a year prior to Fisher saying anything when it was brought to her attention that people said she hid her pregnancy. She didn't give tons of details then because it was so long ago and she figured people would just defend him and say she needed to get over it (even though she wasn't the one who brought it up), but Fisher and other people coming out and being called liars, made her feel like she had less reason to be diplomatic... something she'd been edging towards for awhile. Again, not hard to understand. You know you can like his shows right AND acknowledge his wrongdoing right? I love his work (including The Nevers), doesn't mean I don't believe Charisma...and other women like Nell Scovell who said he insulted their pregnant bodies long before Charisma statements were taken seriously. I can understand being frustrated about having to change some stuff to accommodate her, but how it was handled was ridiculous and awful. Seems a lot of his fans are the ones that don't want to see the other side (and saying she never brought it up until Ray Fisher and condescendingly saying, "I'm just bring up one of the fact" because "everyone" seems to not *understand* does imply that you think she's lying) Based off of things I heard him say (like in commentaries) before season 4 even happened or just weird things he'd do to her through her character, led me to believe he never liked her, even before last February (that doesn't contradict me saying I don't think we should get mad at every little thing, because this was pattern for years that accumulated in him firing her). Oh, and btw, let's not try the "she was late all the time" thing because there's no way she would have gotten away with that for 7 years and then only got fired because of the pregnancy thing. I've never heard it confirmed by anyone that she ever actually was, only "complaints of tardiness lodged against her during s1 of Buffy." Who knows if they were valid, and even if they were, back at that time she was finishing another show simultaneously, so they knew already that could happen. Finished.
Amanda
2022-03-13 12:02:09 +0000 UTCThere are plenty of actors who got pregnant and had it either worked into their show or successfully hidden. They didn't need to dictate to her what life choices to make, and they didn't need to render her character comatose. They could, for example, have had her have a one-night stand with a guy who turned out to be a demonic Jasmine worshipper, then spend S4 pregnant and awake with Jasmine taking temporary control of her body to do villainy, then had her close out the season by having to assist in the defeat of her own daughter. Instead they chose to interfere in her personal life and humiliate her character.
Ed Green
2022-02-20 09:20:55 +0000 UTCWhat was the original storyline planned which would heavily feature Cordelia (and her having stunt work and makeup)?
Judson
2022-02-19 13:37:13 +0000 UTCOriginally, Charisma Carpenter agreed to come back if they made he promised not to kill off her character, but when she read the script and saw how perfect it was, she agreed to do it. As for the whole situation between her and Joss Whedon, I will say that she has said for the last decade up until the Ray Fisher ordeal that she and Joss had made up, and not to take sides but just to point out the fact that the producers had actually had multiple meetings with her before the start of season 4 to make sure that she didn't get pregnant like she said she wanted to because Cordelia would be heavily featured and have to do a lot of stop work and apparently even makeup and such. They then spent countless hours coming up with scripts and budgets that had to be scrapped when she went and got pregnant anyway, costing the production countless time and energy and money. Again, just pointing out one of the facts because everyone seems to not understand the other side of what happened.
ZemoWillams
2022-02-19 02:27:55 +0000 UTC'Hey, it's okay, it's okay, you're welcome. Well, come to think of it, I gotta go'
Ed Green
2022-02-19 00:33:54 +0000 UTCCordelia: "I swear, one of these times, you're gonna wake up in a coma." Giles [incredulous]: "Wake up in a... never mind." She was right! Someone could wake up while still being in a coma. :( Agreed with you completely. As much as Cordelia's death stings, this is a much MUCH better resolution for her than having her stay in a coma after an entire season of being something's puppet. She got to push the values and things she found important forward, got to say everything she had left unsaid, and spoke of moving on to a greater destiny. The latter of which is somewhat like her decision to ascend in season 3, so it is totally in character and implies that it is a happy or at least ambiguous end for her.
Judson
2022-02-18 17:34:07 +0000 UTCGoddamn. I understood that her speech about Doyle was really about herself and her current situation, but I somehow COMPLETELY MISSED the fact that they *both* used the phrase "I get that, now." Fuck! This episode is so good!
Nicholas Bogroff Ganssle
2022-02-18 07:56:16 +0000 UTCOverall, a wonderful, yet devastating episode. RIP Cordelia Chase (and the real Doyle).
Steve Quast
2022-02-18 06:25:37 +0000 UTCI agree with everything you said 100%. I consider this to be pretty much a perfect episode of the show. It has everything you would want out of an Angel episode. Despite all of the backstage turmoil I am greatfull as a fan that Charisma agreed to return and the character a proper send off and celebrate the 100th episode. Angel, Cordy, and Lindsay were all in the very first episode if the show and now they were all a major part of the 100th. Very cool. I would have loved for Cordy to have stayed but I think with this being charismas only episode for the season that killing the character off was the right move. I can’t watch that last scene without choking up. Charisma apparently agreed to come back on one condition, that they didn’t kill Cordy. But after she read the script she know it was perfect and agreed anyways.
Ray D
2022-02-18 06:11:20 +0000 UTCSpike playing video games is my spirit animal.
Steve Quast
2022-02-18 05:36:13 +0000 UTCUpon multiple watches of this episode, none of which get easier, you see a bit of foreshadowing. From Cordy quickly hiding her own body (aka “miss one foot in the grave”) from Angel and Wesley, to the apology to Wesley regarding Lilah (“I just wanted to let you know before…”). The one that stings the most is the conversation she and Angel have while watching Doyle. Cordy’s “I get that now” directly parallels Doyle’s last words to Angel (“The good fight, yeah? You never know until you’re tested. I get that now!”).
Free Your Geek
2022-02-18 02:45:52 +0000 UTCSuch a good episode, but man that ending 🥺 I'm so glad Charisma was able to come back for it despite everything, the show wasn't the same without her!
Ailish
2022-02-18 01:41:34 +0000 UTCSince the revelations about what Joss Whedon put Charisma Carpenter through, I no longer consider the conclusion of this episode canon. As far as I'm concerned, Cordy is off on her own mission and the PTB told Angel she was dead in order to keep them separate.
Ed Green
2022-02-18 01:15:10 +0000 UTCThe Buffyverse knows how to do a 100th episode. I gotta say I think what hurt the most was reminding us of the Cordelia we were missing out on and what season 5 could have been if she'd been around. I'm glad she didn't linger in a coma... but still bitter. Is the pause/rewind features not there for anyone else?
G A
2022-02-18 00:45:40 +0000 UTC
