Update Video #3

I haven't played it, but I listen to Waypoint Radio so I've heard Austin and Patrick talk about it A LOT. I think multiplayer games like that kind of get away without having an endpoint? Like, Smash still doesn't bore me, because, even if I mastered it, the metagame would still be evolving all the time and I'd have to pick up new strategies to deal with how other people were playing. I dunno, maybe if Nuclear Throne was playing against other people instead of the computer, it wouldn't become unsatisfying?

Ian Danskin

I wonder when that will happen for me with Crypt of the Necrodancer. I'm right now trying the all zones mode with Aria after having finished every single zone except the boss at the end. I coming closer to the 300 hrs mark, but I try to only pick challenges that are fun.

Gil

Have you played, or been generally exposed to, PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds? I generally dislike games without, as you put it there, logical endpoints, but I'm finding PUBG to be incredibly fun and addictive, even though my PC and internet connection barely runs it. Like many roguelikes, it's designed to be addictive, to make you want to jump into the next game as soon as you lose (or, on the rare occasion, win)

Ryan Aston

Yeah I got the same angst. At some point, I reach the point where the game is comfortable. I've played it that much, I'm good at it, and though my skills have plateaued a long time ago, I strap in and get to it. Same happened with Mobas really, my skill at Dota could improve after the 2041 hours (I just checked on steam) I spent on it, but really, that's not why I'm playing. And in that sense, the famed hardcore gamers are no better or worse than the candy crush players, you get in your mood and flow and you just drum on. There is no end to it so the only end is your boredom. Game designers are getting pretty good at hacking our brains not to get bored, but for now they fail at around 2000 hours tops for me. I wonder if the next generation of games will bring randomness and AI story driven generation to a point where we can just play for more than 2 years which is the standard bar for MMORPG ennui.

Oscar Barda

That's a toughie. I mean, obviously I still get some kind of pleasurable flow state from NT if I'm still playing 600 hours later, right? But I think it might be the Destiny problem - getting good at the game feels SO GOOD that settling into a comfortable, masterful groove feels like a letdown. I mean, Vlambeer are masters of game feel, and what makes you fall in love with the game is not the comfy grind of, like, Animal Crossing or Solitaire, it's that RUSH. Because that rush lasted me for the first few hundred hours. Really, THAT'S what I fell in love with. And this groove is fine, I guess, but it's not... satisfying. I dunno, it feels almost ungrateful to say that I'm 600 hours into a game and feel like I want even more out of it, but it is the feeling I have.

Ian Danskin

not to discredit all the other things that go into games, but what u make out of it will always be what you take away from it when you're done playing

james

first off! just want to say your voice is soothing and you always telling your audience how much you love them makes me feel good. thank u. secondly! i think all video game experiences will plateau as you are describing. that feeling of chasing the neverending hurts in the long run because we are creating nostalgia in microcosm (first time you pick up the incinerator, etc.), and those kinds of experiences can't go on forever (i think?) in a game experience because there has to be a limitation to things you can introduce. we've been trained to want more because of the compulsive nature of games, and that's where i think your feelings are coming from. maybe i'm generalizing, but i understand your feelings on some level. i've always felt that the solution to that (kinda) is the personal stories you can make out of roguelikes? the obvious first example being dwarf fortress. i rarely pick up DF nowadays but i can still go to forums / messageboards / IRC and find people just sharing their wild ass stories about demons in the -47th level chasms, and relish in the theatrics of it all!!! What keeps me coming back to anything (smash bros, spelunky, ddr (not that SSB or DDR are roguelikes lmao)) is almost always the stories that come out of picking them back up.

james

I love NT more than I ever loved Spelunky or Binding of Isaac, so if either of them brought you joy NT might bring you more. But it may end the same way it did for me. D:

Ian Danskin

no u

Ian Danskin

I realize I did the info dump but never actually got to the *point*. You mention that you seem to lose joy in these games without a goal. Did you have thoughts on just the idea of getting in flow? Rather then missing the rush of a new boss or mechanic. Were you able to get any joy out of the idea of playing by habit? Losing yourself in the ritual of it all? I know I at least enjoy that and it's what brings me back to beating punch out!! (though I can only consistently get though super) from time to time.

My relationships with these games are different. I think they hook me but I end up giving up on them relatively quickly. (binding of Isaac 20h, Enter the Gungeon 20h [weird!]) I think a big part of it is that my "default game" is league of legends 644h and before that tf2 888h) But I think ive tasted the same rush you talk about. When you beat a boss, or find a new thing. But for me the biggest was "oh wow, I think im going to get really far this run". I never got good enough at any of these to consistently get to the final bosses, but when you get close... WOOO

That truthbomb about Spelunky hit me real hard, because I have that relationship with Spelunky 1.1 in exactly the same way as you do/did. I never really got into the first Binding of Isaac though. I enjoyed Rebirth and Afterbirth a ton though. You really troubled me, because I would like to try Nuclear Throne now, but I do not think I want to go down the same road as you did. I never really questioned my behavior in this way before, but your existential crisis was contagious.

What is with August this year? Seems like a lot of stuff has been going on for everyone. Anyhoo—super excited for when it's ready and fine with waiting. :) You're super awesome.

Kait Hatch