Hell on Earth - Appendix 6: THE EAST (feat. Derek Davison)
Added 2023-04-19 11:00:03 +0000 UTCWe’re joined by Derek Davison (Foreign Exchanges newsletter, American Prestige podcast) to discuss the ever-present entity to the east of our main story, the Ottoman Empire. Derek takes us through the rise, reign and decline of the Ottomans themselves, and we dig further into their interactions with Europe in the 17th century.
Subscribe to Foreign Exchanges here: https://www.foreignexchanges.news/
And the American Prestige podcast here: https://www.americanprestigepod.com/
Comments
I swear to god somebody mention Alexander the Great as the first celebrity
Poseyma2
2024-01-26 19:31:18 +0000 UTCIslamic culture was always far more socially aware than Europe. Then they found oil.....
Khemith
2023-04-26 04:51:07 +0000 UTCAlso because all land was nominally owned by the sultan, property accumulation was much much slower, with neither a feudal class to but up land nor a protobourgeoisie to expand beyond guild workshops
Danpat
2023-04-22 22:04:06 +0000 UTCAnother structural difference between Ottomans and the west worth considering is that Ottoman-Islamic legal codes functionally prevented the accumulation of capital at the same pace and scale as in Europe! Only merchants and financiers were allowed to make profits above the 10-20% that was limited to all other sectors. Also the Timar system of the Sipahis was (according to Halil Inalcik) somewhat different to the feudal system in that, because all land was legally owned by the Sultan, all farmland was divided into family farms operated by peasants largely independent of the Sipahis (so long as they didn’t not underproduce). Inalcik compares this system to Chayanov’s theory on the Russian peasant economy. Would really recommend checking out Inalcik’s ‘capital formation in the Ottoman Empire’ as well as his general economic history of the empire. The sections on the land regime is super interesing
Danpat
2023-04-22 22:01:37 +0000 UTCDamn I’m on a roll. The Kosovo battle that Derik mentioned has been used as a key historical trauma, a shared experience among the Serbian clans to generate a modern Serbian identity in the late 18th and early 19th century. This is why the modern Serbian state has a hard time giving up Kosovo. One thing to note is that the whole generation of Serbian nobles has been wiped out at that battle. It was a complete failure yet it’s used as one of the key ingredients to create a modern Serbian nation state.
boki
2023-04-22 18:16:36 +0000 UTCGreat comment Nikolay about Bosnian urban vs rural split between. Urban Turkish and covert population benefited from the empire while rural mountainous Catholics and orthodox retained their culture. I wish Derek just touched a bit on the importance of this time to for setting up the stage for the Bosnian war.
boki
2023-04-22 18:04:11 +0000 UTCGreat episode. I wish Derick had a little more about the Slavs. Murat was killed by Milos Obilić. He was about to surrender to Murat and kiss his boot, and then stabbed him with a dagger. The Turkish invasion prompted Serbian exodus to AustroHungarian Croatian region. They were absorbed into local military units and given land concessions to establish a military border or Vojana Kraina. Most of those families stayed there until 1994 Storm expulsion.
boki
2023-04-22 17:53:01 +0000 UTCGreat penultimate episode Fellas! I wish y’all had more time to do an episode on focusing on the African Kingdoms impact on the 30 years war and how the Great Design influenced Dutch War strategy. Home team history did a great video about it here: https://youtu.be/4quE_p3mR38
Austin Ross
2023-04-22 00:48:56 +0000 UTCshame they didn't get William Dalrymple or Anita Anand on, their just finished podcast series on the Ottoman Empire was absolutely fantastic.
Luminita Stanila
2023-04-21 18:56:06 +0000 UTCThanks Chris Wade!
Don Tickles
2023-04-21 03:24:46 +0000 UTCTwitch.tv/chapotraphouse @4p est
Chris Wade
2023-04-21 03:02:01 +0000 UTCThank you Anthony (wat a nice young man!) Anybody know where? Twitch?
Don Tickles
2023-04-21 02:51:22 +0000 UTCThey said at the end of the last ep, I think it's Friday at 4pm EST I hope your mom gets her question answered
Anthony Perry
2023-04-21 02:48:01 +0000 UTCSo cool i get to go Mamluk to Ottoman with double D ❤️🔥
Scot Forsythe
2023-04-21 01:40:05 +0000 UTCMy mom has a question for the podcast where when is the live stream wrap up?
Don Tickles
2023-04-20 22:55:24 +0000 UTCExcellent episode, Derek is always great. The Empire podcast has a good episode on the Ottomans and the Tudors where they read some of the the correspondence with Elizabeth I of England and the Ottomans and Moroccans that Derek references; the Moroccan king even proposed colonizing Virginia for her.
Ty Drown
2023-04-20 17:10:09 +0000 UTCOne of the greatest empires to ever ball. It’s insane that they lasted until 1917
C. Ries
2023-04-20 17:09:50 +0000 UTCYou guys really stuck your foot in this series. I'm sorry it's coming to an end.
David Andrews
2023-04-20 14:05:28 +0000 UTCCan you guys please do an episode with Zizek where you discuss pere josef
Ivan Novikov
2023-04-20 03:31:01 +0000 UTCThis is great timing what with the new EU4 expansion being Ottoman-focused coming out today.
Crash Test Orphan
2023-04-20 02:03:35 +0000 UTCI was begging for this episode. Finally we can find out why those Turks were so lustful for Vienna
Christian
2023-04-20 00:38:36 +0000 UTCThis series just keeps on giving
JD Nonce
2023-04-19 23:05:59 +0000 UTCIs there a place to get the Hell on Earth theme music? I love it!
Zack Huber
2023-04-19 22:22:18 +0000 UTCIzmit is close but it's a different place
woof dog
2023-04-19 22:11:25 +0000 UTCIt's Iznik not Izmit. Fun episode
woof dog
2023-04-19 22:10:37 +0000 UTCWe love the appendices, don't we folks?
Nico
2023-04-19 17:50:06 +0000 UTCthis show got more appendices than original episodes lol
buttface
2023-04-19 17:47:00 +0000 UTCSuliman, you Magnificent Bastard! I read your book!
Julie Baxter
2023-04-19 17:45:49 +0000 UTCThis needs to be called the Grand Vizier's Garden Party
Demented Avenger
2023-04-19 17:25:26 +0000 UTCwow that is very interesting, thank you for writing this1
Sam
2023-04-19 16:54:04 +0000 UTCOn the question of why the Bosnian converted to Islam, I agree with Derek that they occupied a buffer zone where neither the Catholic nor Orthodox church could establish religious hegemony. But (as Derek alluded to) there was mass conversion elsewhere in the Balkans, particularly in Albania. Even outside Albania and Bosnia, there were large Muslim minorities across the region, but they mostly spoke Turkish, even if they descended from indigenous converts. They were also largely an urban population of bureacrats, craftsmen and other middle-class professions who depended on the Ottoman state for their livelihoods. Most towns above a certain size were majority Muslim and, by modern standards, "ethnically" Turkish. The revolts that formed the new Christian principalities out of the 19th century Ottoman Balkans mostly drove out these urban Turks, whether through voluntary migration, forcible expulsion or through literal genocide. What remained were mostly rural Muslim peasants. The Turkish-speakers among them would adopt a Turkish identity and be largely excluded from the new nation states, leading to gradual (and continuing) outmigration to modern-day Turkey, further cementing the Christian majorities in most of these countries. Those who retained their indigenous language were/are largely viewed as a religious but not an ethnic minority. What sets Bosnia apart is that most of the converts retained their Slavic language and weren't subjected to the same pressure to emigrate from a Christian majority. The language aspect may have been because of their relative remoteness from the Ottoman core and the fact that Bosnia, a very mountainous country, wasn't as amenable to settlement by Turkish speakers from that core. But the Muslim community in Bosnia was mostly town-based, like elsewhere in the Balkans, and mostly occupied the more hospitable valleys of central Bosnia, while the rural highlands were populated mainly by Catholic and Orthodox Christians. The three-way religious split meant there was never a majority community to form a dominant national movement, although Serb separatists (e.g. The Black Hand) were active there. The Habsburgs took over Bosnia in 1878 and seem to have largely maintained the existing social structure and the religious-demographic balance. It wasn't until after WWII that any kind of Muslim Bosniak national identity started to form, as I understand, because ethnic affiliation ended up breaking down along confessional lines. What strikes me as more exceptional is the mass conversion of Albanians. Granted, Albania also lies across a Catholic-Orthodox faultline, and to this day the northwest and southern fringes of the country are majority Catholic and Orthodox, respectively. You could also make the same argument for language retention in Albania; the country is mountainous and isolated. But why such a large majority converted to Islam... My best guess is Derek's "mountain warrior" argument, which I think applies better in this case. Albanian auxiliaries really were widely used by the Ottoman state up until the early 20th century. Later, a lot of Albanians climbed the ranks of the Ottoman system and became viziers or governors, like Muhammad Ali Pasha (Egypt) or Ali Pasha (Epirus). Sorry for the long-winded lecture, I'm originally from the region and have speculated a lot on these questions. I was also just possessed by the demonic energy of the beverage GURU.
Nico
2023-04-19 16:20:05 +0000 UTCderek!! hell yeah!!
butt ass
2023-04-19 14:51:09 +0000 UTCSometimes their lusting after Vienna got so intense it would disregulate normal breathing patterns in a condition known at the time as Otto-errotic asphyxiation
Dee Haytch
2023-04-19 14:22:22 +0000 UTCThanks for the extra shows guys. The boot of capital has been coming down hard lately and more chapo for the same price is like getting something for free these days
SlowTrickle
2023-04-19 13:34:17 +0000 UTCThe Ottoblob cannot be stopped
Cutler Renard
2023-04-19 13:24:01 +0000 UTCDoesn't get much better than a Derek episode.
Joe
2023-04-19 13:22:10 +0000 UTCyes
NovalisGuy
2023-04-19 12:17:21 +0000 UTCANOTHER ONE
Yutawq
2023-04-19 11:47:48 +0000 UTCHell yeah
Dano More
2023-04-19 11:00:52 +0000 UTC
